Scandinavian (Now with more isoglosses)

[Åge Kruger]

I thought there were some people somewhere in USA who still spoke a really old-fashioned Swedish.

I am not so sure about Swedish, but I know that there are still people from parts of North Dakota and Minnesota which apparently still speak various Norwegian dialects...

There are indeed. They're all either very old or more recent immigrants (particularly the priests and Norwegian language teachers). Sometimes, they're even on Norwegian TV as a source of fascination.

[Terra]

I am not so sure about Swedish, but I know that there are still people from parts of North Dakota and Minnesota which apparently still speak various Norwegian dialects...

They're very few and far between though. You'd have much better luck if you rewound to 100-150 years ago. Same case for German btw... (not counting Hutterites of course)

Case in point:
A greatgrandfather of mine spoke Polish, but his children didn't. Another greatgrandfather and ggmother spoke german, but neglected to teach it to my grandfather. My other greatgrandparents spoke only english as far as I know, though *their* parents or grandparents spoke German.

There are indeed. They're all either very old or more recent immigrants (particularly the priests and Norwegian language teachers). Sometimes, they're even on Norwegian TV as a source of fascination.

Care to give a link or describe the discrepancies? Are their dialects closer to a certain region of Sweden 's that had a larger scale of immigration than the other regions?

[Åge Kruger]

There are indeed. They're all either very old or more recent immigrants (particularly the priests and Norwegian language teachers). Sometimes, they're even on Norwegian TV as a source of fascination.

Care to give a link or describe the discrepancies? Are their dialects closer to a certain region of Sweden 's that had a larger scale of immigration than the other regions?

What do you mean?

[Terra]

What do you mean?

Suppose we have a country with two regions A and B (with A being the ecomonic and cultural center) that speaks a common language, but 2 dialects. Than a significant portion of the people from region B move away to settle in another country. Would it not be likely that the dialect retained among the expat community would likely more similar to that of region B than region A?, while the dominant dialect of the original country would still be A, because it's still the economic and cultural center.

tldr: founder effect

[Åge Kruger]

What do you mean?

Suppose we have a country with two regions A and B (with A being the ecomonic and cultural center) that speaks a common language, but 2 dialects. Than a significant portion of the people from region B move away to settle in another country. Would it not be likely that the dialect retained among the expat community would likely more similar to that of region B than region A?, while the dominant dialect of the original country would still be A, because it's still the economic and cultural center.

tldr: founder effect

The cultural and economic center of Norway is Oslo. If lots of people, from, say Stavanger, moved to America, then yes, the dialect in America would be more similar to Stavanger dialect than to Oslo dialect; that's common sense.

I don't understand what's remarkable about that.

I don't understand what Sweden has to do with it either. Most immigrants from Norway to the US came from the south and west, fyi.

[Travis B.]

I am not so sure about Swedish, but I know that there are still people from parts of North Dakota and Minnesota which apparently still speak various Norwegian dialects...

They're very few and far between though. You'd have much better luck if you rewound to 100-150 years ago. Same case for German btw... (not counting Hutterites of course)

Case in point:
A greatgrandfather of mine spoke Polish, but his children didn't. Another greatgrandfather and ggmother spoke german, but neglected to teach it to my grandfather. My other greatgrandparents spoke only english as far as I know, though *their* parents or grandparents spoke German.

Well, that is how it has been over a much wider area (for instance, while my great-grandparents on my dad's side could speak German, my grandparents on his side could not, and while my maternal grandmother I know natively spoke Polish, she has since lost the ability to actively speak it and has not passed it onto my mother or any of her siblings). Places like rural North Dakota and Minnesota just represent the last holdouts where English has not yet completely replaced just about everything else except for "new" immigrant languages (which likely are doomed in the long term).

There are indeed. They're all either very old or more recent immigrants (particularly the priests and Norwegian language teachers). Sometimes, they're even on Norwegian TV as a source of fascination.

Care to give a link or describe the discrepancies? Are their dialects closer to a certain region of Sweden 's that had a larger scale of immigration than the other regions?

One younger guy I have had contact with on another board who is from the US who apparently natively speaks Norwegian, for instance, apparently only really speaks some rural dialect that many southeastern Norwegians find, well, amusing...

[Terra]

The cultural and economic center of Norway is Oslo. If lots of people, from, say Stavanger, moved to America, then yes, the dialect in America would be more similar to Stavanger dialect than to Oslo dialect; that's common sense.

I don't understand what's remarkable about that.

I don't understand what Sweden has to do with it either. Most immigrants from Norway to the US came from the south and west, fyi.

Typo, I meant "Norway" where I said "Sweden".

I was asking for examples of differences, because even though I don't know any Norwegian, the first page of this thread had a link to a nice graphic that any non-Norwegian could understand, thus I was wondering if the same would be done for this dialect...

Places like rural North Dakota and Minnesota just represent the last holdouts where English has not yet completely replaced just about everything else except for "new" immigrant languages (which likely are doomed in the long term).

Indeed. I'm just pointing out that even these last holdouts are extremely small at this time.

One younger guy I have had contact with on another board who is from the US who apparently natively speaks Norwegian, for instance, apparently only really speaks some rural dialect that many southeastern Norwegians find, well, amusing...

I see.

[Åge Kruger]

The cultural and economic center of Norway is Oslo. If lots of people, from, say Stavanger, moved to America, then yes, the dialect in America would be more similar to Stavanger dialect than to Oslo dialect; that's common sense.

I don't understand what's remarkable about that.

I don't understand what Sweden has to do with it either. Most immigrants from Norway to the US came from the south and west, fyi.

Typo, I meant "Norway" where I said "Sweden".

I was asking for examples of differences, because even though I don't know any Norwegian, the first page of this thread had a link to a nice graphic that any non-Norwegian could understand, thus I was wondering if the same would be done for this dialect...

I see. It's not really correct to speak about, or to assume that there is a dominant dialect in Norway in the same that the USA has a dominant dialect (general American). In Norway, it's prestigious to speak your own dialect, and the dialects are very strong, particularly where the majority of immigrants to the US came from.

I'm afraid I don't have any information on the North American varieties of the Norwegian, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were strongly grounded in dialect.

[Qwynegold]

I thought there were some people somewhere in USA who still spoke a really old-fashioned Swedish.

I am not so sure about Swedish, but I know that there are still people from parts of North Dakota and Minnesota which apparently still speak various Norwegian dialects...

There are indeed. They're all either very old or more recent immigrants (particularly the priests and Norwegian language teachers). Sometimes, they're even on Norwegian TV as a source of fascination.

Yeah, I've seen on TV and read in newspapers similar things about Swedish emigrants. I remember one funny thing were there was someone who had both Swedish and Irish ancestry, so she would paint shamrocks on dalahästar.

Ånej.

Har du inte hört det?

Nej.

Eller förresten, Viktor säger ju såna grejer, fast det räknas inte.

[Terra]

I see. It's not really correct to speak about, or to assume that there is a dominant dialect in Norway in the same that the USA has a dominant dialect (general American). In Norway, it's prestigious to speak your own dialect, and the dialects are very strong, particularly where the majority of immigrants to the US came from.

Interesting... So people don't belittle another for speaking another dialect?

I'm afraid I don't have any information on the North American varieties of the Norwegian, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were strongly grounded in dialect.

Hmm.

[Åge Kruger]

I see. It's not really correct to speak about, or to assume that there is a dominant dialect in Norway in the same that the USA has a dominant dialect (general American). In Norway, it's prestigious to speak your own dialect, and the dialects are very strong, particularly where the majority of immigrants to the US came from.

Interesting... So people don't belittle another for speaking another dialect?

There is a certain constituency of people (generally from the east of Norway) who like to think that because they are the political, cultural, and economic center, that people who don't speak bokmål-normative dialects are fair game for some pointed ribbing. Generally though, the length and bredth of the country is highly tolerant of not only the use of dialect, but the variation of dialect, in all forms of communication and media. The state-funded broadcaster has been criticised by their own staff for not allowing presenters of politically-oriented shows to interview politicians in their own dialect, because requiring them to speak a bokmål or nynorsk normative form means that they can't think or react as quickly or in the manner which is most beneficial.

My girlfriend has a cousin from Oslo who, when he can't understand a particular dialect word, tells her she "must speak Norwegian". She retorts with "It's just I find it so difficult to understand you when you speak such awful Danish."

[Anders]

Ånej.

Har du inte hört det?

Nej.

Eller förresten, Viktor säger ju såna grejer, fast det räknas inte.

fniss fniss!

[rickardspaghetti]

Vilken dialekt talar du, Anders? Jag talar Göteborgska(fast inte så kraftfull dock).

[Aszev]

Alright. Time for an update here. I've now made a page about the different dialect groups based on my map. You won't get any isogloss maps I'm afraid, but I've made a big table with several features and how they differ in the different varieties.

It is quite possible that there are several things on it that aren't clear to someone who hasn't been wrapping his head around these things for a few hours like I have. If you find something unclear, please tell me.

In any case, it's available here:

SVENSKA
ENGLISH

[Herra Ratatoskr]

Very nice. I might wind up "borrowing" that kind of a map/table arrangement when I start making a page on West Saxon dialectology . I've been looking more and more into the various Scandinavian languages, and this is really interesting to read, especially when looking at how the various dialects differ from the "standard" form. You've done a right good job on this, and I'd love to see more stuff from you on Scandinavian dialects.

[Aszev]

Thanks :)

[Anders]

Vilken dialekt talar du, Anders? Jag talar Göteborgska(fast inte så kraftfull dock).

Åh, jag såg frågan först idag.
Jag talar ingen ren dialekt. Min mor, som lärde mig tala, kommer från Västerbotten och själv har jag vuxit upp i Gästrikland så jag talar en blandning av västerbottniska och gästrikländska.
Men eftersom jag är preskriptivistiskt och konservativt lagd anpassar jag min svenska till de idealen till viss del (ingen extrem anpassning alltså).

[Skomakar'n]

Vilken dialekt talar du, Anders? Jag talar Göteborgska(fast inte så kraftfull dock).

Åh, jag såg frågan först idag.
Jag talar ingen ren dialekt. Min mor, som lärde mig tala, kommer från Västerbotten och själv har jag vuxit upp i Gästrikland så jag talar en blandning av västerbottniska och gästrikländska.
Men eftersom jag är preskriptivistiskt och konservativt lagd anpassar jag min svenska till de idealen till viss del (ingen extrem anpassning alltså).

The three of us, and any other Swede to be found on these boards, should have a little comparison between our dialects. I think it could be fairly interesting.

I am pretty sure that I speak a quite unique one, seeing as it is influenced by so many people that I've met, and those are not limited to Sweden, but also to Norway. I've grown up in Göteborg, with one half of my family (as in släkt) speaking Västgötska, which is the base of my dialect, but through Norwegian (I think), I've gotten diphtongs, and probably also through Norwegian, I've started pronouncing the old hv- as kv-, and then, of course, I also have my preferences. I say ulv and ramn (pronounced as ravn, since that's the natural consistency with my pronunciation of namn [navn], hamn [havn] and so on), instead of varg and korp, simply because I like the words more, and not really because any influence has caused me to do so.

So, if we were all to do a little comparison, we could, for example, take this sentence, written in the probable way of a boring person living in Stockholm:

Jag har varit ute och sprungit i skogen i dag. Jag har sett rävar, vargar och björnar, men korpar och andra fåglar, också. De tog sig fram på flera, olika sätt; kröp, flög, gick på fyra eller två ben, och sådant. Det blev sedan natt, och himlen fylldes av mörker och solen gick ned, för att låta stjärnorna och månen komma fram och lysa upp svart och glittrande vatten. Jag tycker om natten, när den sätter in; månen är gul, stjärnorna är vita, och vattnen är mörka.

Then, this is how I would actually write this, if I were to be writing something for school, or just for the sake of it, or any other reason:

Jag haver varit ute och löpt i skogen i dag. Jag haver sett rävar, ulvar och björnar, men ramnar och andra fåglar, ock. De tog sig fram på flera, olika vis; kröp, flög, gick på fyra eller två ben, och slikt. Det vart sedan natt, och himmelen fylldes av mörker, och solen gick neder, för att låta stjärnorna och månen komma fram och lysa upp svart och glittrande vatten. Jag tycker om natten, när hon sätter in; månen är gul, stjärnorna är vita, och vattnen är mörka.

Then, I would probably write it in my dialect, according to a consistent orthography (mainly based on Norwegian), that doesn't represent the exact pronunciation, but worries more about ethymology:

Eg hev veret ute og laupt i skogen i dag. Eg hev set reva, ulva och bjørna, men ravna og andra fugla, og. Dei tok sig fram å fleir, olik vis; kraup, flaug, gjekk å fyger eller tvø bein, og slikt. Det vard sidan nått, og himelen fylldest av myrkre, og sola gjekk nider, fyr at låta stjernurna og månan koma fram og ljusa upp svart og glitrande vatn. Eg tyk um nåtta, nær hun set/setter inn; månen er guler, stjernurna eru hvita, og vatna eru myrk.

I was writing this in IPA, but I managed to close the tab, and I'm to lazy to rewrite it, but, using the Swedish orthography, this is an approximate pronunciation, with R representing a soft /ʁ/, and r representing a common, but strong /r/, unlike those goofs around Stockholm, who pronounce it like /ɹ/ (and u is always pronounced like a true uuuuu, like in Icelandic, and I pronounce my l thick, and I'm pretty sure my ö is very much like in normal Västgötska). I will use the IPA symbol /ɪ/ to represent that sound, though. I pronounce stj the way it's spelled, with the letters separate, and not like the standard Swedish pronunciation.

Ä' väre ut'å löjpt i skogn i dag. Ä' sä Rävå, ulvå' björnå, männ Råvnå' ånnrå fölå/fulå, å. Däj tok säk fråmm å fläjr, olik vis; kröjp, flöjg, djäck å fyr ella tvö bäjn, å tjlikt. Dä våtjɪå nått, å hɪmmeln föllest a mörkr'å solå djäck nɪr, f'å låtå stjärnurå' månån kåmå fråm å ljus'upp svårt o glɪtrånne våttn. Ä töck(kj) umm nåttå, när hu sätt/sätter/sättj/sättjer ɪnn; mån' ä gulr, stjärnur'ä kvitå, å våttn'ä mörk.

If anybody who doesn't understand Swedish is interested, here is the translation to English:

I have been out running in the woods today. I saw foxes, wolves and bears, but ravens and other birds as well. They moved about in many, different ways; crawled, flew, walked on four or two legs, and such. It became night, and the sky was filled with darkness, and the sun went down, to let the stars and the moon come forth and light up black and sparkling water. I like the night, when it comes; the moon is yellow, the stars are white, and the waters are dark.

Your turn!

[Radagast]

Whats the deal with är/eru? And why do you write a distinction between those if you don't pronounce it?


Cool dialect though!

[Skomakar'n]

Whats the deal with är/eru? And why do you write a distinction between those if you don't pronounce it?


Cool dialect though!

I do pronounce it in articulated speech, but I was trying to give an example of my casual, way too quick speech. I also noticed, while reading it aloud to myself, that I actually did pronounce the -e att the end of "myrkre", and then made a pause before moving on, so I guess I would have to be speaking really fast for that vowel to drop and merge with the next one.

Are you from Sweden?

I guess I should also point out that the rest of my family doesn't sound even close to the way I do. It's just because my friends live in so many different locations, and I'm way too adaptive to other people's dialects, that I do. It's scary to hear the way my stress moves over from one end to the other in no time, when I speak to people from Norrland.

I guess that I should also point out that I only speak truly like this when I'm entirely comfortable with it, because people do have problems understanding me, so I usually adapt to them (both intentionally and unintentionally).

[Radagast]

I'm from trans-øresund Scania. But what is the deal with the är/eru distinction? gender?

[Skomakar'n]

I'm from trans-øresund Scania. But what is the deal with the är/eru distinction? gender?

Number. Did I actually spell it with an ä? I'll have to fix that.

[Radagast]

Why is moon and water not the same number?

[Skomakar'n]

Why is moon and water not the same number?

It says "vattnen är mörka" (vatna eru myrk), which means "the waters are dark", and not "the water is dark". Standard Swedish has no number distinction for verbs, so är is used in plural as well, and måne and vatten (måne and vatn) are of different genders, and the definite plural form suffix of vatten looks like the definite singular form suffix for måne (-en), and in my dialect, the plural form of neuter adjectives looks like the singular, feminine forms of the adjectives (in nominative), which causes confusion.

Nominative forms are:

dark water, the dark water, dark waters, the dark waters
mörkt vatten, mörka vattnet, mörka vatten, mörka vattnen
myrkt vatn, myrka vatnet, myrk vatn, myrke vatna

yellow moon, the yellow moon, yellow moons, the yellow moons
gul måne, gula månen, gula månar, gula månarna
guler måne, gule månen, gule månar, gule månarne

[Aszev]

Skomakar'n: So basically what you speak is a constructed idiolect?