Quick Gaelic Question

[marconatrix]

Speaking of which are you sure it's "an saol" and not "an t-saol", or am I just thinking of the genitive?

I'm proud of myself, I can answer with certainty!
Saol is masculine, so it's an saol (Nom. Sin.), na saolta (Nom. Plur.), rud éigean an tsaoil (Gen. Sin.), rudaí na saol (Gen. Plur.).

In modern Irish, the dative (tabharthach), accusative (cunspóireach) and nominative (aimneach) have basically all collapsed into one case, along with the Genitive and Vocative.

I think what was at the back of my mind must have been the phrase o chionn fada an t-saothail meaning 'for a very long time', lit. something like 'since long (ago) of the world'. SG certainly still has a separate dative for most feminine nouns, a' chlach 'the stone', leis a' chloich 'with the stone' ,na cloiche 'of the stone'. Do you still have a dual number which is in the same as the dative singular, dà chloich 'two stones' ?

[marconatrix]

EDIT: Interestingly, the verbal noun was a new concept to me. I obviously knew how to use it, but I would never refer to it as such in Irish.

You can tell it has to be a noun because the object is either a possessive pronoun or a noun in the genitive. That is, what you literally say for 'he is hitting me' is "he is at my hitting", or "he is at (the) seeing of the cat" for 'he sees the cat' --- In SG Tha e 'gam bhualadh. Tha e a' faicinn a' chait.
The same applies in Brittonic, except the genitive is unmarked, but the possessives are still needed for a pronoun object.

[marconatrix]

What do you mean by "prepositional"? Definite nouns undergo initial mutations after most prepositions in all dialects (generally lenition in Ulster and eclipsis elsewhere, though the details are more complicated than that) but don't otherwise change form outside of fixed expressions. So you'll see the dative form of ceann, namely cionn in phrases like de chionn "for [the sake of]; because" or ar chionn "at the end of; before". But de cheann and ar cheann are also used, and I don't think there's a living dialect left where ná lig as do chionn é ("Don't let it out of your head") would not sound stilted. I wouldn't expect to see a plural form like ina gceannaibh (lit. "in their heads") outside of poetry. And I learned Munster Irish, which is the only dialect in which the dative plural hangs on at all!

The dative occurs automatically after most simple prepositions, so it doesn't really need to be marked by inflection, the syntax would serve, as in Brittonic. However, many feminine nouns had a distinct dative, mainly -a stems which palatalised the final consonant. I'm not sure if cionn was ever a case form of ceann 'head, end'. It's a masculine noun so would have no distinct dative, only two forms, ceann which is sing. nom/acc/dat. and plur. genitive. And cinn which is gen. sing. and everything not genitive plural. (You just kinda get used to it). Given all the names like kinloch ... this, that and the other, I think cinn or cionn may have been an old locative.

Yep, I like the dat.pl. it's 'poetic' in SG, e.g. Gu math slàn do na fearaibh chaidh tharris an cuan ... "Here's a health to the men who went over the ocean ..." (song).

[Declan]

Do you still have a dual number which is in the same as the dative singular, dà chloich 'two stones' ?

To be honest, I'm not sure, but I think that bróg (shoe) in Conemara has a dual form, I can't seem to find a reference now though. In general however, there's no dual form. The only distinct forms are nom. sing. and plur. and gen. sing. and plur. and most nouns only have two or at most three forms between the four.

[marconatrix]

Do you still have a dual number which is in the same as the dative singular, dà chloich 'two stones' ?

To be honest, I'm not sure, but I think that bróg (shoe) in Conemara has a dual form, I can't seem to find a reference now though. In general however, there's no dual form. The only distinct forms are nom. sing. and plur. and gen. sing. and plur. and most nouns only have two or at most three forms between the four.

I would have thought "my (two) hands, feet etc' would have stuck as an idiom.

[linguoboy]

I would have thought "my (two) hands, feet etc' would have stuck as an idiom.

Dhá láimh and dhá chois are both part of the standard language, but I'm not sure how widespread they are in colloquial speech. (Certainly mo dhá lámh gets plenty of Ghits.) The other second declension nouns with distinct dative/dual forms in CO are bos, bróg, and cluas.

[linguoboy]

I'm not sure if cionn was ever a case form of ceann 'head, end'. It's a masculine noun so would have no distinct dative, only two forms, ceann which is sing. nom/acc/dat. and plur. genitive. And cinn which is gen. sing. and everything not genitive plural. :roll: (You just kinda get used to it). Given all the names like kinloch ... this, that and the other, I think cinn or cionn may have been an old locative.

How do you figure? The Proto-Celtic dative singular for *kʷennos is *kʷennūi, where *-ūi is the outcome of PIE *-ōi (< *-o-ei) in unstressed syllables. The high back vowel causes raising of the stem vowel without the palatalisation associated with front vowel suffixes (e.g. genitive *-i <*-osyo). Whether it was *kʷennoi or *kʷennei, the locative case would've behaved like one of these front suffixes and given *cinn. Cionn could also be a survival of an ablative or instrumental form (which would've fallen together as *kʷennū in PC) but not a locative.

[tezcatlip0ca]

How do you pronounce Gaelic anyway? Not the word Gaelic, the language. I searched on Wikipedia and it gave me too much information to learn at a steady pace.

[linguoboy]

How do you pronounce Gaelic anyway? Not the word Gaelic, the language. I searched on Wikipedia and it gave me too much information to learn at a steady pace.

So what exactly are you asking for? Graduated lessons?

(And do you mean Irish Gaelic or Scottish Gaelic? The pronunciation diverges considerably between varieties.)

Here's an example of how I would pronounce the principle parts of ceann:

ceann (N/A sing., G pl.) ['cʰa̠un̪ˠ]
cinn (G sing., N/A pl.) ['cʰi:ŋʲ]
cionn (D sing.) ['cʰu̟:n̪ˠ]
ceannaibh (D pl.) ['cʰa̠n̪ˠəvʲ]

This is Cork Irish. Irish varieties vary considerably in how they treat vowels before (historically) fortis sonorants. The Connemara pronunciation of ceann, for instance, is ['cʰa̠:n̪ˠ] unless I miss my guess.

[tezcatlip0ca]

Must have fallen asleep for a moment. I meant in one sitting, not at a steady rate.

[marconatrix]

For the sounds of Scots Gaelic here is one resource :

http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm#Beurla

We also have the compound preposition os cionn 'overhead' which looks like a ceann by-form. In the modern language -o stems have no distinctive dative, but in OI these had a u-coloured final consonant, i.e. ciunn.

I always used to think that Irish was far more conservative regarding grammar etc. than SG, so it comes as a bit of a shock to realise how far most of the dialects have thrown out noun and verb inflections.

[linguoboy]

I always used to think that Irish was far more conservative regarding grammar etc. than SG, so it comes as a bit of a shock to realise how far most of the dialects have thrown out noun and verb inflections. :|

I had the same notion, so for me it's always surprising to find out what inflections Scottish Gaelic still retains! I didn't think it had any dative forms left. Of course, I learned Munster Irish, which is the most conservative when it comes to inflectional morphology; I still can't look at a form like chuaigh muid without feeling it's some sort of abomination.

A Mharco, an bhíonn tú ag fáil an-deacair Gaelainn na hÉireann a thuiscint? Féadaim Gaelainn na hAlban a léaghadh ach é ag cur saothair orm.

[Yng]

At least you can live safe in the knowledge that you're both far more conservative than us lot down here

The only dual in Welsh I can think of is 'dwylo', which is the plural of llaw (hand). 'Dwy' is the feminine of 'two' - but even if you were talking about more than two you'd still say dwylo (actually I'm pretty sure that if you were saying 'two hands' deliberately, you'd say 'dwy law' instead...)

[Dewrad]

At least you can live safe in the knowledge that you're both far more conservative than us lot down here

The only dual in Welsh I can think of is 'dwylo', which is the plural of llaw (hand). 'Dwy' is the feminine of 'two' - but even if you were talking about more than two you'd still say dwylo (actually I'm pretty sure that if you were saying 'two hands' deliberately, you'd say 'dwy law' instead...)

There's also deuddydd and deufis in the standard language, and some dialects retain things like dwyfron, deudroed and so on. However, I'll admit that I had to go look them up: IMD none of them are used, including dwylo.

[Declan]

I still can't look at a form like chuaigh muid without feeling it's some sort of abomination.

I always preferred the combined forms too, and despite having to still use the Caighdeán, I nearly always use the combined forms, especially for the Modh Coinneallach and Gnáthchaite.

Nach bhfuil sé sár-dheachair ort Gaeilge na Halban a thuiscint? Tá sí i bhfad níos cosúla le Gaeilge Uladh ná Gaeilge Mumhan.

BTW, I often wondered, isn't it unusual that Irish has more joint forms for the least used tenses than for the most common? For example, the present tense in Conemara has no joint forms, but the Modh Coinneallach has. I thought that complexities would be lost in the least used tenses first?

[linguoboy]

BTW, I often wondered, isn't it unusual that Irish has more joint forms for the least used tenses than for the most common? For example, the present tense in Conemara has no joint forms, but the Modh Coinneallach has. I thought that complexities would be lost in the least used tenses first?

What I find even odder is that outside of Munster the synthetic forms are better preserved in interrogatives and their replies than in simple declaratives, e.g. "Níor bhris tú í, nár bhrisis?" "Bhriseas."

[Yng]

There's also deuddydd and deufis in the standard language, and some dialects retain things like dwyfron, deudroed and so on. However, I'll admit that I had to go look them up: IMD none of them are used, including dwylo.

What do you use as the plural of 'llaw'? I'd only ever say 'dwylo' in a sentence where, in fact, it means more than two hands, like 'dwylo i fyny' or something like that.

'Deuddydd' is the only one of those that I've ever heard. Dwyfron and deudroed sound... I dunno... old-fashioned maybe?

I wonder if 'deuddeg' is an old dual form that changed meaning, possibly?

[Salmoneus]

I still can't look at a form like chuaigh muid without feeling it's some sort of abomination.

I always preferred the combined forms too, and despite having to still use the Caighdeán, I nearly always use the combined forms, especially for the Modh Coinneallach and Gnáthchaite.

Nach bhfuil sé sár-dheachair ort Gaeilge na Halban a thuiscint? Tá sí i bhfad níos cosúla le Gaeilge Uladh ná Gaeilge Mumhan.

BTW, I often wondered, isn't it unusual that Irish has more joint forms for the least used tenses than for the most common? For example, the present tense in Conemara has no joint forms, but the Modh Coinneallach has. I thought that complexities would be lost in the least used tenses first?

I can't speak for Irish, but sometimes less used forms are more marked and emphatic - that is, you only use the Weird Form if you're really making a point - which probably helps in retaining otherwise archaic forms. After all, you only use archaic forms in a marked way, and uses of weird tenses/modes are often highly marked, so it's not suprising there's overlap.

Another aspect of that is that people often intentionally try to sound archaic when using particular modes - mostly things connected to gnomic or imperative(/hortative/commissive/etc) semantics. There are probably people who only use the verb "shall" in the expression "thou shallt", for instance, and subjunctive are far more common in that sort of modality than for, say, simple conditionals.

[Dewrad]

There's also deuddydd and deufis in the standard language, and some dialects retain things like dwyfron, deudroed and so on. However, I'll admit that I had to go look them up: IMD none of them are used, including dwylo.

What do you use as the plural of 'llaw'? I'd only ever say 'dwylo' in a sentence where, in fact, it means more than two hands, like 'dwylo i fyny' or something like that.

"Haffla", generally. It's still irregular, just not standard-irregular

'Deuddydd' is the only one of those that I've ever heard. Dwyfron and deudroed sound... I dunno... old-fashioned maybe?

They were indeed common in Middle Welsh.

I wonder if 'deuddeg' is an old dual form that changed meaning, possibly?

Nah, it's just a simple compound. It's paralleled in the other Brythonic languages directly. Actually, out of interest, what do you have for deuddeg? Like most of my immediate family, I have ["da:Deg_0] but my cousins from Llyn say ["d@iDeg_0].

[linguoboy]

Like most of my immediate family, I have ["da:Deg_0] but my cousins from Llyn say ["d@iDeg_0].

I didn't know you had family in Llŷn! Dywed i mi, can you say what the local pronunciation would be for "Tudweiliog" and "Llangwnnadl"?

[Dewrad]

Like most of my immediate family, I have ["da:Deg_0] but my cousins from Llyn say ["d@iDeg_0].

I didn't know you had family in Llŷn! Dywed i mi, can you say what the local pronunciation would be for "Tudweiliog" and "Llangwnnadl"?

Christ, that far out they could say virtually anything. That's the arse end of nowhere even for Llŷn- even people from Anglesey think it's remote and backwards. I honestly wouldn't know how the locals speak out that way.

My family's in the east of Llŷn, around Criccieth mainly. Narrowly, I'd guess at something like [t_h1;"dM\@:ljO;g_0] and [K{~N"gU~nad] for them.

[Yng]

"Haffla", generally. It's still irregular, just not standard-irregular

Oh right

Nah, it's just a simple compound. It's paralleled in the other Brythonic languages directly. Actually, out of interest, what do you have for deuddeg? Like most of my immediate family, I have ["da:Deg_0] but my cousins from Llyn say ["d@iDeg_0].

Something like ['de:ðeg]. I'm pretty standard boring apart from [uisnos] for wythnos and [ɛ] for 'au' and 'ae' in a lot of places ('cerddoriaeth' = [cɛrðɔriɛθ], drychioliaethau = [drəxiɔliɛθɛ:]), which are pretty typical Northeastern things I think.

Edit: and a couple of other nonstandard pronunciations, [de:d] for dweud, sometimes [gne:d] for gwneud, etc etc.

I don't know whereabouts exactly you're from, but there's a feature I've noticed in a lot of Northwestern dialects that I can't put my finger on. It sounds to me like nasalisation of a lot of vowels (people from elsewhere seem to put it on in Eisteddfodau as well for some reason) but I don't think it is... any ideas?

By the way... you wouldn't happen to know where I could get a copy of Cymraeg Cymra^g Cymre^g from would you?

[Dewrad]

I don't know whereabouts exactly you're from,

The Conwy valley.

but there's a feature I've noticed in a lot of Northwestern dialects that I can't put my finger on. It sounds to me like nasalisation of a lot of vowels (people from elsewhere seem to put it on in Eisteddfodau as well for some reason) but I don't think it is... any ideas?

It's mainly a western Gwynedd thing (on the wrong side of the mountains...): it's almost vaguely like nasal harmony. You get it in eastern Llŷn, Bangor, Blaenau etc.

By the way... you wouldn't happen to know where I could get a copy of Cymraeg Cymra^g Cymre^g from would you?

Library? Amazon.co.uk has it as well, I think.

[Yng]

The Conwy valley.

Oh! I like it round there.

It's mainly a western Gwynedd thing (on the wrong side of the mountains...): it's almost vaguely like nasal harmony. You get it in eastern Llŷn, Bangor, Blaenau etc.

Ahh, yeah, that would explain it. My friend (who's from round here) insists on speaking like that because he thinks it makes him sound more cultivated

Library? Amazon.co.uk has it as well, I think.

Amazon doesn't as far as I can see. The library might - I haven't looked there recently because it only reopened after closure a few days ago.

[marconatrix]

I always used to think that Irish was far more conservative regarding grammar etc. than SG, so it comes as a bit of a shock to realise how far most of the dialects have thrown out noun and verb inflections.

I had the same notion, so for me it's always surprising to find out what inflections Scottish Gaelic still retains! I didn't think it had any dative forms left. Of course, I learned Munster Irish, which is the most conservative when it comes to inflectional morphology; I still can't look at a form like chuaigh muid without feeling it's some sort of abomination.

A Mharco, an bhíonn tú ag fáil an-deacair Gaelainn na hÉireann a thuiscint? Féadaim Gaelainn na hAlban a léaghadh ach é ag cur saothair orm.

I'm in pretty much the same position only the other way about. I find I can understand more written Irish than I thought, but I need to learn the few common words that are strange to me. You've used several above. To say 'I can' we use a completely different idiom 's urrainn dhomh "'tis possible to me", we don't have the -ann tense at all, the habitual present is the same as the future, but we add -(e)as on to the future in a relative sentence. I think we have more absolute/conjunct contrasts in the dozen or so irregular verbs than there are in Mod. Irish, but the only personal endings on verbs are in the subjunctive and imperative. As far as nouns go, some dialects certainly do or did level out the cases, in fact Perthshire Gaelic (now extinct afaik) is supposed to have done away with them entirely. Looking again at Irish, I find it a bit easier than I used to, but I think learning Welsh and Cornish may have given me a better intuition for some of the verb tenses and personal endings. Oh, and it took me a long time to accept muid which I assume is an inflexion which has broken loose to lead a life of its own.

Bhithinn ag radh, "A bheil thu a' faighinn Gàidhlig na h-Alba glé dhoirbh a thuigsinn? 'S urrainn dhomh Gàidhlig na hÉireann a leughadh ach tha i a' cur dragh orm"

Do you know of any web resources for Ulster Irish, that's the one dialect I don't have much information for.

And of course if you ever get tired of life, there's always Old Irish