Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[Corumayas]

Here's an updated map of the Lukpanic coast, featuring Corumayas' suggestions from here, and showing Pigbaea. (I used the Proto-Lukpanic name for consistency.)

Any comments? In particular, is Pigbaea is roughly the right place, and do the other cities look better now?

I'd still put the westernmost cities closer to the central peninsula, I think. But even if they stay where you have them now (which could make sense if they were founded much later than the central ones), I think we should definitely add more cities on the peninsula itself (the Proto-Lukpanic page says there are "about twelve" cities altogether; so far we have eight). I'm imagining something like Greece or Phoenicia: a cluster of cities quite close together from which a large trading empire grows.

The other part of this is that, in my opinion, there should be more than just two language families around the Western Gulf. Compare California, or even the ancient Mediterranean: in Iberia alone there were four distinct families. The Westerners were clearly in the eastern "Corridor" region early enough to have absorbed whatever other groups used to be there without a trace; but further west I think there should be traces of at least a couple more language families (or isolates).


Edit: Periods of Western History

(This is pretty much just summing up what we have so far.)


1. PREHISTORY ca. -3500 to -1800 YP
Proto-Western descendants spread out. (There's an early dialect chain, which Çetázó and Gezoro appear to be at opposite ends of; Çet. seems closest to Iŋomœ and maybe Empotle7á, while Gezoro looks closest to Tmaśareʔ.)

The Gezoro are the first to leave, moving onto the Tjakori Plateau and reaching the Rathedān about -3000. By -2000 Çetázó speakers settle at the south end of Lake Wañelin; about the same time, Iŋomœ́ speakers move into the western steppe, and Empotle7á speakers are somewhere along the coast. By -1800 Tmaśareʔ speakers are in the Kipceʔ desert and Proto-Coastal speakers are also somewhere on the coast.

The ancestors of the Lukpaneab move into their homeland ca. -2600.


2. ARCHAIC PERIOD ca. -1800 to -200 YP
The Lukpanic culture expands; most of their growth happens in the millenium from -1600 and -600.

Lake Western groups expand into the mountains around Lake Wañelin. One of these, the Wañelinlawag, builds a small empire around the shores of the Lake by -500. Another, the Anheshnalåks, crosses onto the Tjakori Plateau by -900 and spends the next six centuries harrassing the Xšali Empire.

Coastal Western groups invade the Lukpanic Coast from the east, probably beginning around -1000. They conquer Naəgbum by -900 and Ishe by -450, and completely replace the Lukpanic languages by -200.


3. CLASSICAL PERIOD ca. -200 to ???
I suspect the next stage will see one or more maritime empires arising along the coast, possibly in conflict with the Wañelinlawag. Later on the Steppe peoples will come raiding from the north...

[the duke of nuke]

Ok, I'll move the cities a bit closer to the peninsula. Looking at the distributions of Minoan, Cycladic, and Phoenician civilisations it seems that about 400 miles of coast should do the trick. My only concern is that if they're too close together, it would be harder to explain the divergence of the Western languages in the area.

If all that's needed of the other lanugage substrates to the west is sketches, I would be happy to provide one.

I like the history description. While we're at it, what sort of technology do you want the cities to have by the start of the classical period? I've said in the grammar that place notation is invented around -550 YP, and in the culture page that they have bronze working and decent masonry, as well as a fair command of mounted warfare; whether they have iron, and how good their shipbuilding is, seem to be significant but aren't currently defined.

[dunomapuka]

Ok, I'll move the cities a bit closer to the peninsula. Looking at the distributions of Minoan, Cycladic, and Phoenician civilisations it seems that about 400 miles of coast should do the trick. My only concern is that if they're too close together, it would be harder to explain the divergence of the Western languages in the area.

If all that's needed of the other lanugage substrates to the west is sketches, I would be happy to provide one.

I like the history description. While we're at it, what sort of technology do you want the cities to have by the start of the classical period? I've said in the grammar that place notation is invented around -550 YP, and in the culture page that they have bronze working and decent masonry, as well as a fair command of mounted warfare; whether they have iron, and how good their shipbuilding is, seem to be significant but aren't currently defined.

My sense is that they're Bronze Age - no iron. I don't know much about types of ships. Probably they're at the level of ancient Aegean ships, not too big, and with a single sail.

Mounted warfare, I assume, was borrowed from the Westerners at a late date.

Their writing system is a mystery too. I wrote down that Lukpanic writing ultimately derives from the Xšali, but I don't know who would have brought it there, or when Xšali writing dates from. I also wrote that the language is attested (i.e. there's writing) from -1600, but I now think this is way too early.

[the duke of nuke]

My sense is that they're Bronze Age - no iron. I don't know much about types of ships. Probably they're at the level of ancient Aegean ships, not too big, and with a single sail.

Ok, I'll include that in the descriptions.

Mounted warfare, I assume, was borrowed from the Westerners at a late date.

That was the idea. I've written that the Lukpanic peoples were (as of -600, shortly before the conquest of Ishe) failing to counter Western horsemen and archers or to field useful numbers of their own.

Their writing system is a mystery too. I wrote down that Lukpanic writing ultimately derives from the Xšali, but I don't know who would have brought it there, or when Xšali writing dates from. I also wrote that the language is attested (i.e. there's writing) from -1600, but I now think this is way too early.

Fair enough... I remember you saying that you wanted it to look like the Indus script.
It would seem reasonable if they had at least the beginnings of a script, for instance something organised like this. Perhaps, like in Mesoamerica, it started out as ritual symbols and was adapted to other areas during the late Lukpanic period (early 1st millenium BP)...

[Dewrad]

Their writing system is a mystery too. I wrote down that Lukpanic writing ultimately derives from the Xšali, but I don't know who would have brought it there, or when Xšali writing dates from. I also wrote that the language is attested (i.e. there's writing) from -1600, but I now think this is way too early.

I kind of agree: if writing reached the Lukpanic sphere at this time, it certainly leapfrogged the Western speakers. I really don't think we should handwave this away by having the Lukpanic speakers inventing writing themselves. Independent invention of writing on earth has only happened three (ish) times, and all three were separated by massive expanses of territory: if we say that Lukpanic speakers also invented writing, that's taking the total in and around northern Peilas to three already.

[dunomapuka]

Their writing system is a mystery too. I wrote down that Lukpanic writing ultimately derives from the Xšali, but I don't know who would have brought it there, or when Xšali writing dates from. I also wrote that the language is attested (i.e. there's writing) from -1600, but I now think this is way too early.

I kind of agree: if writing reached the Lukpanic sphere at this time, it certainly leapfrogged the Western speakers. I really don't think we should handwave this away by having the Lukpanic speakers inventing writing themselves. Independent invention of writing on earth has only happened three (ish) times, and all three were separated by massive expanses of territory: if we say that Lukpanic speakers also invented writing, that's taking the total in and around northern Peilas to three already.

Based on the history table, the introduction of writing to the Lukpanab (which is the correct form, BTW, rather than "Lukpaneab") would coincide with the 1st Xšali Empire. During this period of strength for the Xšali, their traders or explorers might have made contact with the Lukpanic sphere, crossing the mountains NW of Lake Tjakori. I assume that the Lukpanab, being a curious and enterprising people, had boats exploring all around the coast even at this early stage.

I will also introduce the idea that one or two of the core cities had set up some small colonies on the Coastal Corridor at an early point. This would be the point of contact.

This scenario assumes the 1st Empire is literate, which seems reasonable enough. If it's not, then maybe it was the Lukpanab or the Westerners who, somewhat later, introduced writing to the Xšali sphere.

[Corumayas]

My only concern is that if they're too close together, it would be harder to explain the divergence of the Western languages in the area.

Oh, I see. Yeah, I hadn't thought about it like that.

Although... the Coastal Western peoples don't seem to start invading till almost a thousand years after PCW is supposed to be spoken, so presumably they've been diverging already during that time. Maybe there were multiple CW tribes, already speaking different (though closely related) languages, that each took over a different part of the Lukpanic area? Does that seem at all plausible?

If all that's needed of the other lanugage substrates to the west is sketches, I would be happy to provide one.

Cool. I might do one too...


boy #12, that scenario sounds possible to me. But clearly we need to know more about Xšalad! And in general it sounds like we need some kind of master plan for how the various civilizations interact and transmit ideas. (That history table was meant to help organize exactly that kind of information, so I'm glad it's somewhat serving its purpose here.)

FWIW, there are three original centers of civilization in Peilaš that I know of-- the Aiwa valley, the Yima valley (Xšalad), and the tropical highlands of the southwest (the mysterious Wellawi civilization). The Lukpanic/Western sphere (which develops slightly later than those three) could be in contact with both Xšalad and the Wellawi, though probably not directly-- at least, not most of the time; they're not impossibly far away, but far/difficult enough to be daunting (the trip from the Lukpanic coast to Wellawi territory is very much like sailing from Portugal to West Africa, while the overland part of the journey to Xšalad must be something like walking from California to Texas).

So transmission through intermediaries seems more likely to me; but if the source is Xšalad (which does make the most sense I think-- I don't know if the Wellawi even have writing) then the intermediaries would pretty much have to be Western...

[Radius Solis]

This scenario assumes the 1st Empire is literate, which seems reasonable enough. If it's not, then maybe it was the Lukpanab or the Westerners who, somewhat later, introduced writing to the Xšali sphere.

They definitely were. Xšali writing dates at least to the Xšali invasion (presently listed at -2100, though I think it may need to be moved earlier). I did once have a substantial timeline worked out, but 1. it's gone now and 2. I found later that it was muchly in need of revision anyway, as the history of central Xšalad needs to go at least a millennium further back than is presently shown on the chart.

[Radius Solis]

Hey Tzirtzi! Glad things are going well for you, and of course we'll still be here whenever you're able to be around again.

----

On locating the Jamna: On the new map I propose to put them in far-northern "SW Peilash". Specifically, at the intersection between two imaginary lines, one drawn due south from "Coastal Corridor" and one drawn due west from "Xshalad". How does this sound? Does it conflict with anything (e.g. any known location or history for the Wellawi or other peoples Cedh has posited in the region)? The location would appear to fit what I want in terms of climate: it's easy to imagine it as part of a transition zone between dry grasslands to the north and wetter and more forested lands to the south, so I get to have savanna. It's also satisfactorily remote; and there would have to be a second-tier trade route in the region anyway, which is perfect.

Note that I don't really want them having direct dominion over tons and tons of land. I'm thinking in terms of a lone prosperous citystate way out in the hinterlands, with some economic hegemony and cultural imperialism of a surrounding less-developed region, and nothing like a major nation. But having some impact in the sense of being famed across the continent for certain trade goods....

And on that note: have we decided yet who first starts making/selling silk? If not, can I claim it? If not, any other ideas for what they can sell that everyone will want? I thought of ivory, but I suspect that's not in such a short supply on Akana. Gold? Frankincense and myrrh? Some kind of hideously expensive spice or dye?

[the duke of nuke]

I like where this is going. It would certainly make sense... if they're the only ones producing silk, they could build up quite a trade monopoly.

The only question is, where are Cedh's Wellawi going to go? I imagined them as being around that little lake to the west of the Tjakori, which would put them at one corner of a triangle with the Jamna and Xshalad, but obviously it's up to him.

[Cedh]

On locating the Jamna: On the new map I propose to put them in far-northern "SW Peilash". Specifically, at the intersection between two imaginary lines, one drawn due south from "Coastal Corridor" and one drawn due west from "Xshalad". How does this sound? Does it conflict with anything (e.g. any known location or history for the Wellawi or other peoples Cedh has posited in the region)? The location would appear to fit what I want in terms of climate: it's easy to imagine it as part of a transition zone between dry grasslands to the north and wetter and more forested lands to the south, so I get to have savanna. It's also satisfactorily remote; and there would have to be a second-tier trade route in the region anyway, which is perfect.

The Wellawi are not in the savanna, but up in the mountains somewhere (see below). Your location is approximately where Legion wanted his Dgonlli people to go, which might lead to some collision. But then the savanna area is quite large...

The only question is, where are Cedh's Wellawi going to go? I imagined them as being around that little lake to the west of the Tjakori, which would put them at one corner of a triangle with the Jamna and Xshalad, but obviously it's up to him.

I've been imagining them further southwest, in the mountains near that peninsula west of the Kipceʔ. The lake you mention (and especially the wide valley upriver from it) would be a rather good place though.

[Radius Solis]

I wonder what time period he had in mind for the Dgonlli. The Jamna are rather late in the game... the co-location problem might be solved simply by the temporal distance. But the savanna probably isn't as big as you might be thinking; it's not the so-called "savanna" climate in the Köppen system, which I suspect is what Legion was referring to, via the climate map. Real savannas are simply grasslands with partial tree cover, and tend to be found in transitional areas between dry/grassy and wet/forested zones. This would probably be a horizontal strip no more than a couple hundred miles wide in the north-south direction, and running along the border between the light blue and the orange climate zones from the mountains in the west through coastal Xshalad in the east. Ignoring the Xshali portion, that gives something around the size of Italy or California, only horizontal. I need a chunk of this the size of maybe Switzerland or West Virginia at most.

[the duke of nuke]

How big should the Lukpanic city-states be? I've suggested about 60,000 for Ishe and its hinterland, but Cedh has given a much lower figure of 12,000 for Pítau.
I had a look at Wikipedia's page on ancient cities, and it seems that 12,000 is rather low (and that 60,000 is possibly a bit high).
According to the article, in 1600 BC Babylon had 60,000 people, Hattushash 37,000, Knossos 100,000, Niniveh 23,000, Susa 25,000 - all estimates, but hopefully good guidelines.

[Corumayas]

I've searched for this kind of information on Wikipedia before, but I don't think I ever found that page (instead I usually come up with this one). Anyway, I'm quite certain that Knossos couldn't have held 100,000 people (the page doesn't even give a source for that figure)! The article on Knossos gives only 5000-8000 (though also without a source-- geez, Wikipedia!).

A better source would help... maybe I'll try to get McEvedy's historical atlases from the library this weekend.

[Corumayas]

The disconnect between the Köppen climate zones and actual biomes is sure confusing. I really thought the savanna zone would be bigger than you describe.

To be honest, I think the climate map probably needs some revision anyway; and Anguipes's post here got me thinking about doing the same for Akana (i.e. working through bricka's Climate Cookbook). To do that, though, we'd need a more finalized world map with latitude, longitude, and mountain ranges all marked; and we'd also need to decide on the axial tilt of the planet (I remember we talked some time ago about possibly making it larger than Earth's, but IIRC no final decision was made).


About mountains, btw: I'm a little surprised by some of the altitudes on the elevation map [big file!]; in general things are lower than I expected. In particular, I expected the main north-south range(s) to be a bit higher, given that the tectonic situation looks roughly similar to the Himalayas in the north (though not as dramatic, obviously) and the Andes in the south. I also imagined the Tjakori Plateau a bit bigger and higher, and the upper Gauron Emwel as a similar plateau; the Šišin could probably be higher, and maybe the islands of the Sumarušuxi-Ttiruku chain could be steeper too. All these areas are still being uplifted, as far as I can tell.

On the other hand, Siixtaguna north of the Šišin doesn't need to be that mountainous, and the mountains above the Lukpanic Coast could probably be smaller too. Instead, we could really use a decent-sized range along the western coast to dry out the steppe... but I'm not sure whether that's tectonically feasible.

Additionally, IIRC there's supposed to be a range of hills along the south coast of Xšalad. They might be connected with the active rift valley just west of Xšalad, which I think could be much more dramatic. At a minimum, there should be a narrow, deep trench, possibly with one or more deep lakes at the bottom (cf. the Jordan valley-Dead Sea system). But if it's like the East African rift, there could be more than one such valley (this apparently results from failed secondary rifts), they could be huge, and they could be bordered by chains of volcanoes. The gulf that starts just southwest of Xšalad is actually the continuation of that rift valley. But I'm not sure I understand tectonics well enough to tell exactly what these things should look like.


About the Wellawi: I think they were spawned by my idea of having a vaguely Andean-like civilization in the tropical highlands. This would actually put them way down near the bottom left corner of the new map; if the Wellawi are further north than that, maybe they're a northern offshoot of the main civilization...?

[Arzena]

Empotle7á, now with a lexicon, and pronouns!

And Fun with bilabial trill allophony!

(both still WIP)

[the duke of nuke]

Empotle7á, now with a lexicon, and pronouns!

And Fun with bilabial trill allophony!

(both still WIP)

Nice One thing I've noticed - the lexicon apparently has <ng> for /ŋ/ while the Empotle7á grammar has <ŋ>. Is this intentional?

Also, Cedh and I have come to the conclusion that the Lukpanic cities probably have a population of around 15,000 to 25,000, with a whole city-state being about 60,000 to 90,000. As something of a confirmation, I bought a book today called A Short History of Progress by Ronald wright, about the collapse of civilisations, which estimates that a typical Sumerian city-state had about 42,000 of which more than two-thirds was in the central city (and that Uruk at its height reached 50,000 for the city alone).
Corumayas, does that seem right to you?

[Arzena]

I didn't type the eng in the google doc lexicon because of time reasons. I will get to replacing ng with the eng character though.

[dunomapuka]

And Fun with bilabial trill allophony!

(both still WIP)

I've been curious why you're putting the Wippwô stuff up one little bit of information at a time... having trouble deciphering anything? (But, kudos for bilabial trills. Your idea or zomp's?)

Also is Wippwô the name of the language, or just the place it's spoken in?

[Arzena]

But, kudos for bilabial trills. Your idea or zomp's?

That was my own idea.

I've been curious why you're putting the Wippwô stuff up one little bit of information at a time... having trouble deciphering anything?

RL keeps getting in the way. I've downloaded Zomp's sound change program, but I can't open the sound change file that he sent me. Asides from that, I only have an pronoun list of which I'm unsure of etymologies, a phoneme chart, and a lexicon. I'm also altering some sound changes to reflect my own language aesthetic as well.

Wippwô the name of the language

He never made that clear to me. He wrote "Here are the Wippwô files"; OTOH it's the name of the region...so I'll made a reflex from Naidda. For now the working name is Wippwô.

[Alces]

My Iletlegbaku language has gone through a sort of revision, although it wasn't really finished anyway. I hadn't been very happy with the grammar, which was basically the Proto-Coastal Western grammar with just a few minor changes, so I've added some more radical changes (e.g. the loss of subject vs. object marking, since the verb agreement affixes already tell you the role of nouns well enough).

I have a question, too. I don't really know much about how tone tends to work in languages, so I haven't elaborated much on Iletlegbaku's tone system. What kinds of tone sandhi and allophony might you expect for a language like Iletlegbaku, with high, mid and low tones? (I have assumed that the tones are absolute tones, not contours, but there's no reason it couldn't be rising/plain/falling either.)

Another question: Since I've got rid of the ergative case, what should I call the absolutive case, which now is used in the same environment and contrasts with the construct case?

[Nortaneous]

I have a question, too. I don't really know much about how tone tends to work in languages, so I haven't elaborated much on Iletlegbaku's tone system. What kinds of tone sandhi and allophony might you expect for a language like Iletlegbaku, with high, mid and low tones? (I have assumed that the tones are absolute tones, not contours, but there's no reason it couldn't be rising/plain/falling either.)

Maybe tone terracing?

Another question: Since I've got rid of the ergative case, what should I call the absolutive case, which now is used in the same environment and contrasts with the construct case?

I'd call the cases direct and oblique instead of absolutive and construct.

[Alces]

Thanks, those ideas work. I've put them into the grammar.

[A pocketful of songs.]

-January pressure and winds
-July pressure and winds
-Ocean currents with ice caps and winter pack ice (dotted lines)

Seems climatology's the word of the week. I don't know if prevailing wind and current charts have been done but I didn't see them so I followed bricka's tutorial up to there. Maybe now I'll have time to edit my previous maps with Corumayas' observations.

[Corumayas]

Wow. Thanks for doing those. The ocean currents map in particular is seriously beautiful.