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zompist bboard • View topic - h4 and h5

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 Post subject: h4 and h5
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:17 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: h4 and h5
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:40 am 
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 Post subject: Re: h4 and h5
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:41 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: h4 and h5
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:49 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:24 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: h4 and h5
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:30 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:14 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: h4 and h5
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:36 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:00 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:04 am 
Avisaru
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I remember seeing one reconstruction online somewhere which included a bilabial or labiodental fricative and shifted the plain velars back to uvular and the palatalised velars back to velar leaving the labiovelars as they are with corresponding voiceless fricatives for each as well as a glottal plosive:

/p t k kʷ q/
/b d g gʷ ɢ/
/p' t' k' k'ʷ q' ʔ/
/ɸ s x xʷ χ h/
/m n/
/r l/
/w j/

/ɸ/ and /xʷ/ were proposed as two varients of *h3 with /χ/ and /x/ as two varients of *h2 and /ʔ/ and /h/ as two varients of *h1 although I can't remember whether they were suggesting they were allophones of a single phoneme which underwent different sound changes or six distinct phonemes which later merged into three.

IIRC the main point was that within the Anatolian branch, the six sounds "coloured" the vowels as indicated by their current labelling but one was deleted while the other was retained. I can't remember exactly what was said but it was something along the lines of, with h3 for example, that either /ɸ/ or /xʷ/ was deleted after vowel-colouring occurred while the non-deleted one was retained simply as ḫ. The same would then be true of /χ/ and /x/ where one is deleted and the other retained and so on for /h/ and /ʔ/. In other branches, however, the two sounds "merged" and were both subsequently deleted after vowel-colouring.

Personally I'm still a bit iffy on exactly what the laryngeals were and how many of them there might have been but I have a hard time imagining that if there were six of them that they'd all be between the velar and glottal POAs or that they'd all be fricatives.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:35 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:58 pm 
Avisaru
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At one time there were supposed to have been no less than ten laryngeals.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:02 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:20 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:33 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:31 am 
Avisaru
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Geez, I think I struck a nerve. :roll:

A-A clearly originated in Africa, while my version of Nostratic originated in Central Asia around 12,000 to 14,000 years ago. There is no evidence, archeological or genetic, of a movement of people between Central Asia and NE Africa 14,000 years ago


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:38 am 
Sumerul
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:16 pm 
Sanci
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:15 pm 
Sanci
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