Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[Nortaneous]

One of these days I think I'm going to rework Hanheliubl, now that I actually have some sort of clue as to what I'm doing.

[Radius Solis]

I look forward to it! As you've no doubt discovered by now, the amount of clue you have just keeps gradually growing, the longer you keep at this hobby. E.g. when I first showed up in 2004 I had just about gotten as far as figuring out that letters tend to pairable by voicing, and I was so proud of that discovery.

[Salmoneus]

Unfortunately, the amount of actual material produced often is inversely proportional to the quantity of clue. The more I know, the harder it is, because everything becomes bigger and more complicated.

Years ago, I was throwing out cultural descriptions and getting zbb awards for it. Now, I think "what sort of shape door do these people use?" and then quickly think "wait, no, I can't decide that until I've worked out a history of art, and that's going to require a complete history of philosophy for every culture in a 2000 mile radius!" Aaaand... back to the drawing board...

[eodrakken]

One of these days I think I'm going to rework Hanheliubl, now that I actually have some sort of clue as to what I'm doing.

Funny you mention it, I was just thinking about making some additions to Iŋomœ. I had more in mind than I could actually finish and write up in two weeks, but once the deadline was past I never got around to working on it again -- figures.

[Risla]

(I'm obviously not part of the relay, but I'm commenting on this)

I have the same problem; the more I understand how much everything within a language and a culture and a world is interconnected, the less productive I get and the more time I end up researching stuff like (here's what I spent hours reading about today) how to make calligraphy brushes, production of ink, extraction of oil from coconut and how well bamboo weathers.

I've taken up tentatively proposing something then working backwards (historically) and outwards (field-of-relevancely) from it, then working forwards again and modifying the tentative proposal based on the other things that connect with it in order to keep everything coherent and consistent.

(back to leaving you guys in peace!)

[Nortaneous]

I look forward to it! As you've no doubt discovered by now, the amount of clue you have just keeps gradually growing, the longer you keep at this hobby.

Definitely. I still have practically no clue with regard to morphology and syntax, which is a lot of why I almost never actually conlang, but this time I think I can at least get through it without having to simplify everything to near-pidgin levels like I originally did.

[the duke of nuke]

I've tried to consolidate some of the history of the fall of Huyfárah in a new wiki article on Woldulaš. Most of the earlier stuff is from material either in this thread or on the wiki - some, including pretty much all of the later history, I've come up with on my own.
Since it could well affect what other people are doing in the region post 600 YP, I'd like to ask people what they think of this, and whether any of it should be changed.

[dunomapuka]

I like it. I've started writing a history of Lewsfárah and what happens after, to go along with this - but I'm also writing about the Thokyunam and I want to get that one done first.

Two questions, both about naming issues:
-Should Occupied Huyfárah still be referred to as "Huyfárah?"
-The Doroh by this time have probably split into several distinct nations. We can leave "Doroh" in as a placeholder for now - but I'm interested in the specifics. Who are these Doroh, and what's their home country like?

[the duke of nuke]

As to the first question:
I believe that Huyfárah can still be referred to as such during the Occupation, since it seems that the Fáralo have retained their sense of national identity. We may come up with something better - any suggestions are always good! - but I think "Huyfárah" is fine for now. (We might instead use reflexes of Hagíbəl...)

As to the second question:
Really not sure I don't know much about the Doroh at all. To be honest, I've wanted to get more information on the Doroh, but I durst not do anything on my own... I envisage the ones who sack Ussor as having lived in Fáralo territory for a while, presumably for long enough to gain an intimate grasp of local politics (otherwise they wouldn't have succeeded in raising a host and taking the city).

As an aside, I'm going to be pretty busy from Christmas Day for about two weeks due to actually doing stuff with the family and girlfriend, so I won't be able to spend much time on Akana during that time.

[Corumayas]

One thing that strikes me as a little odd in this story is that the Fáralo seem to give up on their empire so quickly/easily. Why doesn't the new king of Ussor declare himself emperor? Why don't any of the successor kingdoms really try to reunite the empire? Some more explanations seem needed here.

It's very tempting to compare our scenario to the decline of Rome (and subsequent rise of the various Germanic-ruled kingdoms)... on that model, we could have many Doroh tribes running around, with shifting alliances (both with each other and with the Fáralo states), establishing kingdoms all over the map; meanwhile some of the successor states could be trying to rebuild the empire by conquering each other, etc.... in other words, the story could be considerably more complex I think.

Another question is what the Dāiadak are doing during this period. Do they try to take advantage of Huyfárah's collapse and invade Kasca? Or are they embroiled in their own troubles? Maybe the Doroh even invade as far as Lasomo, finishing off both empires in a short span!

And finally, are we all happy with the dating of these events? I seem to remember a suggestion way back that the decline and fall of Ussor could be moved earlier... as it stands it seems probably ok to me; but an earlier collapse would give time for the successor states to coalesce more gradually, which might be desirable.

(I do think that the Empire of Athalē should probably dissolve earlier than we currently have it. At the very least, it should run into more serious difficulties... its history so far seems remarkably untroubled, despite the various dynastic disputes.)


[PS. A linguistic footnote: Hagíbəl is already an archaic name in Fáralo (it's the direct reflex of Ndak Ta Sau Ibli). I really think later names for the region would more likely be derived from Huyfárah.]

[dunomapuka]

One notion I had is that somewhere earlier in the history (I think following the civil war?) the emperor relocates his court to Sertek. Rather parallel to Rome, the Senate stays in Ussor, as does, I suppose, the central temple/offices/whatever of the state religion. So maybe it would be over in Sertek that some faction tries to reconstitute the empire.

I like the idea of a confusing patchwork of Doroh and Fáralo governments in this period. To extend the Roman analogy, I see the Doroh as being the Ostrogoths or Lombards and the pesky Takuña as being the Vandals in North Africa. But in fact I don't want to extend the analogy too far, lest we follow it too closely.

[the duke of nuke]

I do like the idea of a patchwork of kingdoms replacing the empire - and I do like the idea that a faction trying to reconstitute the empire is based in Sertek. (That's one thing wrong with my description: the emperor is described as being in Ussor, when it should just be the senate.) Perhaps there are two competing emperors... there could really be anything going on. Everything between the Oltu and the Poráš is a blank slate after 500 YP
And since it's been brought up - what the hell are the Dāiadak doing all that time? The fall of Akelodo isn't nearly enough to explain the fall of the empire. There are hints at a general decline - the empire's gradual loss of the Ici Forest, the rise of the republic in Oigop'oibauxeu - but nothing to suggest any major collapses like those suffered by Huyfárah. Quite possibly the Doroh cause a lot of disruption in Lasomo, which initiates the fragmentation of the empire, but this is even more open than the fall of Huyfárah.

- Dunomapuka, perhaps we might say that the Doroh are settled and form kingdoms, while the Takuña are just raiders. That's how I've thought of it.

[Basilius]

One thing that strikes me as a little odd in this story is that the Fáralo seem to give up on their empire so quickly/easily. Why doesn't the new king of Ussor declare himself emperor? Why don't any of the successor kingdoms really try to reunite the empire? Some more explanations seem needed here.

I believe empires tend to collapse ultimately because of internal crises, so we might consider sketching one...

For example... When the empire was growing, the society cheaply produced disciplined warriors and loyal officers. When the empire was collapsing, neither of these resources was available because of the societal change that had taken place, and all the stereotypical administrative solutions aimed at improving the situation only made things worse in long-term perspective.

In other words, the strength of the empire depended on social structures that had been evolving for centuries, and when the new imperial structures undermined or supplanted them, nothing could be done *quickly*.

The new states that emerged on the ruins of the empire had to be built on a different foundation and exploit a different type of societal resources; it does not really matter whether they were governed by dynasties of Fáralo or barbarian origin, whether or not they appealed to former glory of Huyfárah, etc. - they could not revive the society which the empire rested on *before* its heyday.

Then, the key question is, what the original sources of power were for the *nascent* empire, and how the later imperial attitudes facilitated their erosion.

(A parallel group of processes to be cosidered could be those related to the territorial organization of the empire, especially the balance of centripetal and centrifugal tendencies in the peripheral provinces.)

* * *

Some comments on Duke's text on the Wiki (which is indeed very interesting BTW!).

Other religions with a presence in Woldulaš include the polytheistic beliefs of the Affanons (Teyendrüya) and those of the Doroh.

My vision is that by 9th century the religion of the Affanons has evolved into essentially a monotheistic one, with worshipers of all the minor deities gradually marginalized. (Also, I have some ideas about how the rather naive version of the Tejenry cult briefly sketched on the Wiki evolved into something much more refined, intellectually; it will involve some philosophy and some spiritual practices - I hope I'll post something on that when I have more spare time...)

{BTW, the native pronunciation of "Tejenry" is [t⁼eˈjeŋʀy], so I'm not sure if Teyendrü is its most natural representation in Woltu Falla...}

The Doroh, influenced by Affanon culture, considered matters in terms of clans; they held vendettas against every noble house (üšala) that had opposed them, and treated them with absolute contempt. A Fáralo lord defeated by the Doroh would have all his possessions seized, his estate taken from him, and would be left with nothing but the clothes on his back – if he survived to keep them. It was not uncommon for a Doroh clan to keep an entire Faralo house as captives and servants.

An invited Affanon expert might indeed approve taking some noble hostages in order to pacify the populace - as (former) pirates, the Affanons must have been cognizant in this business... But the idea of keeping a whole clan (or whatever was perceived as such) as captives would probably strike him as an utterly ineffective solution, especially with Fáralo aristocrates who were expected to have received some military training, I think... :)

Generally, this looks like a bizarre amalgamation of an Affanon-style clan-centered approach (in its somewhat archaic and inelaborate version, which is actually rather natural) and some domestic tradition of household slavery...

[dunomapuka]

The Thokyunèhòta article now has a partial syntax section.

[the duke of nuke]

Basilius:

Thanks for the reminder about the pronunciation. Tejenry would probably become Teyengü in standard WF.

The early strength of the empire may have come from its cavalry troops, which became harder to raise with the loss of large areas of territory. The best land for raising horses was probably the south, which was lost with the secession of Lewsfárah.

The tradition of slavery may have been carried on from the Talo days. Zompist, does the system of whole families bound to servitude fit with your ideas of the enslavement of the Talo? Obviously this is subject to approval but it might explain how the Talo culture remained distinct.

dunomapuka:

The article's looking great! One thought: perhaps the odd borrowing patterns (Fár. /e o/ as /a/, and /E O/ as /e o/) was due to the Eastern Fáralo dialects having [Ei Ou] for standard /e o/.

-

Also, I'm planning on doing a sketch of the Sertek dialect, if nobody else minds. Any thoughts? Although I'm not going to make any major changes to WF now, I don't think it's particularly elegant, and I'm convinced that the other Central languages should be a bit nicer. ( I'm quite pleased with the little description of Fallo na Mendia, though )

[Cedh]

Also, I'm planning on doing a sketch of the Sertek dialect, if nobody else minds. Any thoughts? Although I'm not going to make any major changes to WF now, I don't think it's particularly elegant, and I'm convinced that the other Central languages should be a bit nicer. ( I'm quite pleased with the little description of Fallo na Mendia, though )

I think I'd start with the Central Fáralo sound changes (as in WF), but without merging intermediate /eː ɛː/, /øː œː/, and /oː ɔː/, instead adding length to some /e o/ (stressed open syllables?) because tense /eː øː oː/ would be extremely rare otherwise. From there, I think it might be nice to have the vowels develop a bit like they did in German. For instance:

- i-umlaut of /u o ɔ/ and u-umlaut of /i e ɛ/ to create short front rounded vowels
- breaking of preconsonantal /eː øː oː/ to /ie yø uo/, which might then merge with existing /jɛ wɔ/, and possibly turn into /iː yː uː/ as they did in German
- merger of /ɛː œː ɔː/ into remaining /eː øː oː/, and of short /e ø o/ into /ɛ œ ɔ/
- breaking of /iː yː uː/ to /ɛi œy ɔu/, possibly further to /ai ɔi au/
- lengthening of stressed short vowels in open syllables
- some kind of reduction of unstressed short vowels
- shortening of long vowels before consonant clusters and/or geminates and/or when unstressed

...aiming at a vowel system similar to this one:

Code: Select all

            short                       long
   stressed     unstressed     stressed       unstressed
  ɪ ʏ      ʊ    ɪ       ʊ     iː yː    uː     iˑ yˑ    uˑ
   ɛ œ     ɔ        ə          eː øː   oː      eˑ øˑ   oˑ
        a                       ɛː œː  ɔː           aˑ
                                    aː

plus diphthongs /ɛɪ œʏ ɔʊ/ (maybe realised as [ɛ œ ɔ] when unstressed), and possibly /ie yø uo/ in stressed syllables

I haven't given much thought to the consonants, but it might be a good idea to share the z > r change of Cəssın, so as to get rid of phonemic fricative voicing.

[dunomapuka]

The tradition of slavery may have been carried on from the Talo days. Zompist, does the system of whole families bound to servitude fit with your ideas of the enslavement of the Talo? Obviously this is subject to approval but it might explain how the Talo culture remained distinct.

The whole Talo enslavement thing was Radius' idea - the backstory for his language Puoni. And the story of how their culture subsequently developed in Huyfárah was my idea. Anyway, it makes sense to me, sure. My general notion was that slavery was not really a key institution in Huyfárah - the Talo were a unique situation, and the emperor was crazy. The aim was probably not to create a permanent class of slaves, but punish and humiliate the dissenters. So there perhaps was understood to be a (long-term) time limit on their enslavement?

I described the situation rather vaguely as a form of "indentured servitude," but this may be subject to revision.

[the duke of nuke]

Cedh - that looks pretty interesting. I was thinking about some vowel reduction... one additional possibility would be to leave WF's loss of /æ/, thus giving more lax vowels to play with.

dunomapuka - perhaps Talo families were sent to towns and villages throughout the empire, and assigned undesirable work for the government. If Huyfárah did not have a tradition of slavery, it seems less likely that the Talo would end up as slaves of individual Fáralo (except perhaps of some lords).

[dunomapuka]

Thread bump. Seems we're in a slight lull, though there's been some discussion of the Sertek dialect of Fáralo on the forum - and I still have some Thok. materials to put up, including the lexicon.

[Radius Solis]

I'm in a lull right now too with respect to doing anything in Akana. These come and go with me, as I'm sure they do for most of us. But break times are good, they allow time to gain perspective on old ideas and germinate some new ones. No doubt I'll be back to conlanging again sometime soon, but for now I'm mainly doing some long-neglected reading up on various subjects in linguistics and working on a text adventure game that's going to be cool.

In re: Talo enslavement, I wrote that in an era when we knew less about Huyfárah than we do now, on the assumption that Huyfárah was a rough analog of Rome. If it turns out we need to revise it, that's fine with me, provided we can still arrive at a scenario where a somewhat broken and depleted people migrate to get away from the Fáralo.

[Cedh]

Following a suggestion by 4pq1injbok, I'm currently considering giving a talk about Akana at the upcoming 4th Language Creation Conference, which will take place in Groningen/NL in May.

Some ideas about the content:

• Introduction: a summary of the Akana project
• A presentation of reconstruction games and/or derivation games as a concept?
• How to stop a collaborative conworld from foundering -- is it all down to 'contribute how and when you like'?
• How to create a daughter of someone else's conlang (as opposed to a daughter of one's own CL or of a natlang)?
• Is it possible to create a language collaboratively without meeting face to face (e.g. Ndok Aisô; I think it says a lot that even though Akana is a collaborative conworld, most languages are the work of a single person)?
• Reconstructing collaboratively from very little material, which was not even meant to provide a basis for reconstruction (Proto-Eigə-Isthmus)?
• Issues of naturalism that arise (e.g. How do we account for the high branching degrees at Ndak Ta and Adāta? What do we mean by 'horse'?)?
• Things we might have done differently with foresight?

Other ideas? Suggestions? Comments? Criticism? Anyone not in favor of a talk on Akana?

What about the other Akana participants from Europe (Legion, Dewrad, Duke, TzirTzi, Basilius...) -- are you planning to attend the conference? Are you interested in preparing (and holding?) this talk together with me?

[Radius Solis]

Following a suggestion by 4pq1injbok, I'm currently considering giving a talk about Akana at the upcoming 4th Language Creation Conference, which will take place in Groningen/NL in May.

Awesome!

[*]How to stop a collaborative conworld from foundering -- is it all down to 'contribute how and when you like'?

I sure wouldn't say so. It may even hinder progress. I think the biggest factor in our long-term survival was really that a project needs to reach a certain "critical mass" of information before it can sustain itself. This was provided for us by the original Historical Telephone game and then the Cursed Relay. I think it happens by at least these two mechanisms:
1. a rich variety of existing material to play off of and work with is a great help in coming up with specific further ideas for contributions. Compare traditional writing, where staring at a blank piece of paper, knowing you have to fill it up, can be intimidating... versus Wikipedia, where the existence of earlier material you can edit makes it easy to add to it too.
And 2. the more that someone has contributed to a work, the more they become invested in it and the more they care. This may not hold for everyone, and people do come and go from the project. But, though grand ideas always sound nice, when you start to care is when you've already put some serious work into them.

There may also be a third one, for some of us: having a stable team that cares guarantees you an audience for your work, however small, and that's a lot better than most conlangers get. This may provide an impetus to produce more work to show.

[Zhen Lin]

What about the other Akana participants from Europe (Legion, Dewrad, Duke, TzirTzi, Basilius...) -- are you planning to attend the conference? Are you interested in preparing (and holding?) this talk together with me?

Hmmm, tempting, but I have deadlines in May and exams in June. :-/

[the duke of nuke]

Same for me I'd love to come, but it's just a really bad time of year for me. But I hope it goes well

[TzirTzi]

I'm intending to go to the conference (incidentally, I'm looking for people to car share with, if anyone is or knows someone going from the UK...) and would be happy to help/collaborate on an Akana talk Once I refresh my Akana knowledge after this last long absence, anyway...