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zompist bboard • View topic - Sharshali (no longer Carthaginian)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:42 am 
Avisaru
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Last edited by Ziz on Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:54 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:55 am 
Avisaru
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I haven't looked at most of your stuff, but you might be interested in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Romance

Well, at least so Wikipedia claims. Still, it also links to this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterran ... gua_Franca) about apparently a Romance-Arabic pidgin. Might be pretty interesting and helpful, I hope.

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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:00 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:21 am 
Smeric
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I'm interested.

Well you *could* set the language in like a village in the Atlas mountains, like near the moroccan border [some seriously REMOTE paces can be found there, trust me] or something. That way you could argue and insert it right into the real world. What are the influences you're planning. Berber? Arabic? What's the story behind the 'lang?

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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:55 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:56 am 
Sumerul
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I think a distinction between [ɕ] and [ʂ] is more stable than between [ʃ] and [ʂ], so I'd at least consider that. It'll probably sound very Indian with all the retroflexes, anyway.

Also I'm more used to people throwing in affricates with plosives in a phonemic chart, because they behave similarly. In this scheme, you would have /ts/ as your alveolar and /tʃ dʒ/ as your palatal stops.

Cool idea, anyway. You would need to give us more words, though. Somehow I can imagine it turning out like Maltese, although with a different balance between the Romance and Semitic vocabulary. If you do it right, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:44 am 
Lebom
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Seems interesting (I'm big ups for anything which puts retroflexes in Latin) but I need more crunch. Let's get some grammar going. How about translating the bear joke (ursus in tabernam introiit et cerevisiam imperavit...)?


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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:06 pm 
Lebom
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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:48 pm 
Lebom
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The history between ca. 400-800 CE is going to be pretty important. It seems like a survival of African Romance in the former is likelier than in Carthage itself. Possibly there could have been a large westward population transfer from Carthage at the time of the Vandalic Wars and the Arab conquest.

The big question is: after the Arab conquest, why didn't Arabic become the prestige language for this community, replacing Latin/Romance? Why did Latin/Romance remain spoken given the sociopolitical dominance of Arabic, especially if the speakers converted to Islam? It seems plausible that North African Romance could have maintained prestige if its speakers maintained Christianity (as a Christian minority under Arab rule) and used Latin as a liturgical language.

Even then, it seems like there would be a major lexical influence from Arabic, as in Spanish. Although probably the influence from Berber would be as significant as the influence from Arabic. It might be an interesting idea, a Romance language influenced by Berber in the same way Spanish was influenced by Arabic.


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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:57 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:29 pm 
Sumerul
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don't bother with <ç> if you don't have <c>


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 Post subject: Re: Carthaginian
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:58 pm 
Avisaru
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Last edited by Ziz on Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:10 pm 
Avisaru
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Location: ʃɪkagoʊ, ɪlənoj, ju ɛs eɪ, ə˞θ
Have you considered putting the language somewhere rather remote, like Adrar? Would that work?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:41 pm 
Avisaru
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Very promising looking start! I look forward to seeing more.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:10 pm 
Smeric
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I'm trying to understand some of these sound changes...

Would a word like "interrogāre" → /inne̞χware/? spatula → /ispatulɐ/?

I'm never very good at the syncope and stress based rules :oops:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:41 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:52 am 
Sanno
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Ooh, tl>retroflex. That's an interesting idea. Although I hate retroflexes.

[I also have a carthaginian romlang, but it's more an ongoing process/game than an actual language]

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:46 am 
Lebom
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Just have to say I love this language. Just familiar enough to be, well, familiar, and just different enough to be really interesting.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:54 am 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:08 pm 
Smeric
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Nice stuff. Romlangs are somewhat overdone, but this one has some original traits.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:09 pm 
Avisaru
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@spats, Gojera: Thanks!

@Salmoneus: Truth be told, I don't really like them either. I could end up going with a laminal-apical distinction instead, thought that probably wouldn't be very stable for the stops and nasals. Or I could merge the stops and nasals and keep the fricatives and liquids distinct.

@WeepingElf: Yeah, I know romlangs are terribly overdone. But I've never succeeded at making one that I was satisfied with, so I keep trying again, although this time from a different perspective.

~~

I've got more to say about nouns coming up, but before I do that, do you guys think I should change the orthography? It's got kind of an exotic phonology for a Romance language, but I think I could pull off something that's still unique but also familiarly Romance-looking. I could also keep, I think, the Latin orthography that I've already got, and justify it as a recent invention when Sharshali made the switch from the Arabic script to the Latin.

I definitely need to get around to nailing the history down more concretely. In any case, this is my proposal for a Romance-oid orthography:

(Where there are two graphemes given, the second is used in intervocalic or word-final contexts. Acute accents go on stressed vowels not in the core of the penultimate syllable.)

/p b t d ts t d tɕ k g/ - p b/bb t d/dd tz tr/rt dr/rd ç c g/gg
/m mː n nː ɳ ɲ ɲː/ - m mm n nn rn nh nnh
/f v β θ ð s z ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ x ɣ ħ/ - f v b th d s/ss z/s sr/rs rj ş j rr g h
/r l l ʎ w j/ - r l ll lh u/- y
/i e a o u/ - i e a o u

Iu pallu şarşali. Artu pallas şarşali?
I speak Sharshali. Do you speak Sharshali?

Tu sémmami pirdút. Alhu possu ajdarti ci tu tornas alla cidá?
You seem lost. Can I help you find you get back to the city?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:51 pm 
Sanno
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I like both orthographies. It seems likely that Sharshali would have been written mainly in the Arabic script for about a millennium (if it was written at all during this time), so either romanization would have to be a fairly modern creation. The version with diacritics looks like it would have been proposed by linguists to provide a phonemic transcription, while the more Romance-like romanization seems to be better-suited for typing, and also for attaching nationalist sentiments to it because of the link to Sharshali's linguistic relatives. If I were you, I'd test-run a longer text sample (for instance the Babel text or The North Wind and the Sun) in both orthographies and ask the board which version looks and fits better. (Or you could keep both, similar to how there are several different romanizations of Arabic on the web and in the literature.)

Also, I'd suggest merging /v β/, especially as they seem to be distinguished only after front vowels anyway.

Otherwise, this looks like a promising project.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:23 pm 
Smeric
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I'd say use both.

Both are really pretty, but the second might be easier to type.

I'd go for the first, myself, because I like the look of the diacritics and special characters like <γ ñ ļ>, they seem to fit together in your orthography pretty well.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:31 pm 
Sanno
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Other ideas for the retroflexes might be collapse back into a cluster (tl>t'>rt, or tl>t'>tS, perhaps), or changes to surrounding vowels. Or, on the wild side, rhotic vowels - or wilder, rhotic vowels migrating into clusters on the preceding onset? More prosaically, palatalisation?

Examples:
spatula > isparta
spatula > ispacha
spatula > ispaita
spatula > ispatya
spatula > isprata

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:35 pm 
Avisaru
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Arrgh!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: I just finished translating something and it took me an excruciatingly long time but I was logged out by the end and couldn't go back!!!

Ugh. I'll do it again.

~~

@Salmoneous: I'm putting off the question of how best to dispose of the retroflex series for now, but thanks for the suggestions. :)

In order to see which orthography The Board thinks best fits (and also to give a much-needed longer sample of the language), I've translated the first ten verses of my preferred book of the Tanakh (Ecclesiastes/Kohelet ;) ) into Sharshali. Down below, you'll see IPA, then Orthography 1, the Orthography 2, then the "literal" translation of the Sharshali text into English, then my preferred translation of the Hebrew text into English.

IPA
1: /kaˈlimas deɕ kowˈwelet fiʎu aɕ daˈvid re iɕ ʑiˈruzalim/
2: /vaˈða di ˈvaði el ˈziɕi ɕu kowˈwelet vaˈða di ˈvaði eʈˈʈot van/
3: /ke pruˈfetu el iʂˈʈata el iˈsan di tot eʈʈaˈvaʎu kel faˈtiɣa ˈsutu eʂˈʂoʎ/
4: /ʑil va i ʑil veɲ j eʈˈʈeχa isˈta a ˈsembri/
5: /eʂˈʂoli ˈlevasi j eʂˈʂoli ˈkesi j el ˈkuχi aɭˈɭoksu kel ˈlevasi di la/
6: /el va al ʑaˈnub j el toɳɳasi a 'ɕamal el ˈvendu ˈtoɳɳasi i el ˈtoɳɳasi ˌoʈʈaˈvetɕ i ˈkirkusu/
7: /ˈtoðas ˈel ˈħumi von ˈal maɕ mas ˈel maɕ nun ˈprena aɭˈɭok ˈkel ˈħumi von aɭˈɭa ˈeɭɭas von ˌnowwaˈmendi aɭˈɭa/
8: /ˈtoðas ˈel kozas ˈkasasi mas niˈsan nun ˈpolu ziɕ el ˈotɕu nun ˈvasi praˈɣaɕ di veɕ j el uˈretɕa nun ˈvasi priˈnaɕ di ˌoˈiɕ/
9: /ɕu kel isˈto ɕu kel va isˈtaɕ e ɕu kel ˈfetɕi ɕu kel ˈvasi faɕ e nun isˈta ˈnaða kel nof ˈsutu eʂˈʂoʎ/
10: /asˈta ˈkoza ke deɕa ˈomi zi ˈveɲ ˈaɭɭa veɕ ki nowwa ˈeɭɭa isˈto ʑa nel aˈsaru di ˈandi nos/

Orthography 1
1: Kalimas deš Kowelet, fiľu aš Davíd, re iš Žirúzalim.
2: Vaḏá di vaḏi, el ziši šu Kowelet; vaḏá di vaḏi, eṭṭót van.
3: Ké prufetu el iṣṭata el isán di tot eṭṭavaľu kel fatiγa sutu eṣṣóľ?
4: Žil va i žil veñ, i eṭṭexa istá asembri.
5: Eṣṣoli leva-si i eṣṣoli ke-si, i el kuxi aḷḷók-su kel leva-si di la.
6: El va al žanúb i el toṇa-si a šamal; el vendu toṇa-si, i el toṇa-si oṭavéč i kirku-su.
7: Toḏas el ħumi von al maš, mas el maš nun prena; aḷḷók kel ħumi von aḷḷá, eḷas von nowamendi aḷḷá.
8: Toḏas el kozas kasa-si mas nisán nun pó-lu ziš: el oču nun va-si praγás di veš, i el ureča nun va-si prináš di oíč.
9: Šu kel istó, šu kel va istáš, e šu kel feč-si, šu kel va-si faš; nun istá naḏa kel nof sutu eṣṣóľ.
10: Astá koza ke deša omi zi, « Veñ aḷḷa veš, ki nowa! »? Eḷa istó ža nel asaru di ándi-nos.

Orthography 2
1: Calimas deş Koelet, filhu aş Davíd, re iş Jirúsalim.
2: Vadá di vadi, el zişi şu Koelet; vadá di vadi, ertót van.
3: Cé prufetu el irstata el isán di tot ertavalhu cel fatiga sutu ersólh?
4: Jil va i jil venh, i erterra istá asembri.
5: Ersole leva-si i ersole cé-si, i el curri allóc-su cel leva-si di la.
6: El va al janúb i el torna-si a şamal; el vendu torna-si, i el torna-si ortavéç i circu-su.
7: Todas el humi von al maş, mas el maş nun prena; allóc cel humi von allá, ellas von noamendi allá.
8: Todas el cozas cãsa-si mas nisán nun pó-lu ziş: el oçu nun va-si pragás di veş, i el ureça nun va-si prináş di oíç.
9: Şu cel istó, şu cel va istáş, e şu cel feç-si, şu cel va-si faş; nun istá nada cel nof sutu ersólh.
10: Astá coza ce deşa omi zi, « Venh alla veş, ci noa! »? Ella istó ja nel asaru di ándi-nos.

"Literal" Translation
1: Words of-the Kohelet, son to-the David, king in-the Jerusalem.
2: Vanity of vanities, he said the Kohelet; vanity of vanities, the-all vain.
3: What profit he extracts the person of all the-work that-he toils under the-sun?
4: Generation goes and generation comes, and the-land stands to-always.
5: The-sun raises-himself and the sun goes-down-himself, and he runs to place-his that-he raises-himself from there.
6: He goes to-the south and he turns-himself to-(the) north; the wind turns-himself, and he (re)turns-himself again in circles-his.
7: All the rivers go to-the sea, but the sea not full; to-(the)-place that-the rivers go to-there, they go anew to-there.
8: All the things tire-themselves but no-person not can-it say; the eye not go-itself placate of seeing, and the ear not go-itself fill of hearing.
9: That that-he stood, that that-he goes stand, and that that-he did-itself, that that go-itself do; not stands nothing that-he new under the-sun
10: Is-there thing that of-her man says, "Come to-her see, because new!"? She stood already in-the times of before-us.

Preferred Hebrew-to-English Translation
1: "The words of Koheleth son of David, king in Jerusalem."
2: "Vanity of vanities, said Koheleth; vanity of vanities, all is vanity."
3: "What profit has man in all his toil that he toils under the sun?"
4: "A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth endures forever."
5: "The sun rises and the sun sets, and to its place it yearns and rises there."
6: "It goes to the south and goes around to the north; the will goes around and around, and the will returns to its circuits."
7: "All the rivers flow into the sea, yet the sea is not full; to the place where the rivers flow, there they repeatedly go."
8: "All things are wearisome; no one can utter it; the eye shall not be sated from seeing, nor shall the ear be filled from hearing."
9: "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun."
10: "There is a thing of which [someone] will say, "See this, it is new." It has already been for ages which were before us."

So! Phew! Tell me which orthography you like better, and if you want to comment about the phonology or grammar or anything at all, please, please do!

As a side note, the words for 'words,' 'generation,' 'south,' 'north' and 'ages' are from Arabic. Do you guys think that's a good ratio of foreign-to-Latinate in a text such as this, given the repetition and parallelism and all-around core-ness of the vocabulary? There's also a lot of calquing of Semitic syntax, at least from a Hebrew/Phoenician standpoint...


Last edited by Ziz on Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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