Distinción in Spain

[Ziz]

I've had two European Spanish teachers/professors so far, and both have made distinción (c/z is /θ/ but s is /s/) only sporadically. The first one was an American who learnt Spanish in Spain, but she didn't seem to have any natural distribution of /θ/ and /s/; she even pronounced quizás as /kiˈθaθ/ a few times. The second is a French L1 lady who grew up in Barcelona (without having learnt Catalan), and she seems only to use /θ/ after nasals (her entonces, for example, is without exception /enˈtonθes/). Both of them spoke otherwise without any accent that I could detect.

Is it normal for (some) Spaniards to be kind of wishy-washy in their application of distinción? Or is it just because my teachers learned the language imperfectly?

[Shm Jay]

In the south of Spain they don’t use /θ/; it's why Latin America doesn't either. I think this is called seseo.

[Viktor77]

IME, any of the numerous dialectal variances in Spanish are wish-washy. and [v] distinction, [s]-debuccalization, [d] dropping, [d] and [D] distinction, and seseo and ceceo. Of course I'm sure this is normal for all languages and there must be rules somewhere in the dialects, but it's pretty much random AFAICT. It seems to be based more on the sentence itself than the words.

I know that, myself, in an attempt to sound native, regarding [s]-debuccalization, drop the [s] as randomly as possible. I drop it when it's inconvenient, or when I'm too lazy to say it, or when it's word finally placed on a long word or sentence, etc. This is what I've observed native speakers do since I can't find any sort of logic to when they drop it.

[Drydic]

IME, any of the numerous dialectal variances in Spanish are wish-washy. and [v] distinction, [s]-debuccalization, [d] dropping, [d] and [D] distinction, and seseo and ceceo. Of course I'm sure this is normal for all languages and there must be rules somewhere in the dialects, but it's pretty much random AFAICT. It seems to be based more on the sentence itself than the words.

I know that, myself, in an attempt to sound native, regarding [s]-debuccalization, drop the [s] as randomly as possible. I drop it when it's inconvenient, or when I'm too lazy to say it, or when it's word finally placed on a long word or sentence, etc. This is what I've observed native speakers do since I can't find any sort of logic to when they drop it.

So because you can't get the rules, there are none. And you are a competent field linguist who can easily learn such things.

Yeah quit assuming it's everyone else, it's a lot more likely that it's you.

[Carlos]

In some places (like most of Mexico, and in northern and central Spain) s's are never dropped, whereas in many other places, s's can be aspirated/dropped/the vowel before the s changes, and the consonant after it may be aspirated. In some places, saying all the s's sounds a bit formal/emphatic. Which s's can be aspirated, etc. also varies by location.

[communistplot]

It's always dropped in Puerto Rican & Dominican speakers, else it's lenited to [h]. But only syllable finally.

I would say Rodriguez as [xo.ðri.gɛ] rather than [ro.ðri.ɣeθ] or [ro.dri.ɡes]. As for distincion and ceceo/seseo: distincion is largely found in the north and near areas where other romance languages, such as Catalan, Leonese & Asturian, are spoken. Ceceo/Seseo are interspersed throughout Spain, with the largest concentration of Seseo Spaniards in Andalusia and in Latin America, as stated above due to historical ties.

[Ziz]

It's always dropped in Puerto Rican & Dominican speakers, else it's lenited to [h]. But only syllable finally.

I would say Rodriguez as [xo.ðri.gɛ] rather than [ro.ðri.ɣeθ] or [ro.dri.ɡes]. As for distincion and ceceo/seseo: distincion is largely found in the north and near areas where other romance languages, such as Catalan, Leonese & Asturian, are spoken. Ceceo/Seseo are interspersed throughout Spain, with the largest concentration of Seseo Spaniards in Andalusia and in Latin America, as stated above due to historical ties.

Really? With [x]? I've never heard of that before... I thought velarizing "strong r" was only a Brazilian Portuguese thing.

[communistplot]

It's always dropped in Puerto Rican & Dominican speakers, else it's lenited to [h]. But only syllable finally.

I would say Rodriguez as [xo.ðri.gɛ] rather than [ro.ðri.ɣeθ] or [ro.dri.ɡes]. As for distincion and ceceo/seseo: distincion is largely found in the north and near areas where other romance languages, such as Catalan, Leonese & Asturian, are spoken. Ceceo/Seseo are interspersed throughout Spain, with the largest concentration of Seseo Spaniards in Andalusia and in Latin America, as stated above due to historical ties.

Really? With [x]? I've never heard of that before... I thought velarizing "strong r" was only a Brazilian Portuguese thing.

Yeah, it's something us Puerto Rican speakers are stigmatised for. But there is a distinction between <j> and <r/rr> a word like cajo being pronounced [ka.ho] and carro [ka.jo] I think there might be a merger and complete loss of /r/ at least in Puerto Rican Spanish sometime in the next generation.

[Torco]

No one makes the T-s distinction anymore. it's just that people in spain act like they do in order to impress tourists

[Shm Jay]

Pero yo lo hago. Es siempre divertido de haθer Nosostros canadienses no tenemos un propio accento español.

[Kereb]

*aθento

and yes it's a single c

[communistplot]

Pero yo lo hago. Es siempre divertido de haθer Nosostros canadienses no tenemos un propio accento español.

=O
Pero yo lo hago. Es siempre divertido de hacer. Ustedes Canadienses no tenemos un propio acento español.
[pɛɾo ʒo lo aɡo ɛ sjɛmpɾɛ ðiβɛɾtiðo ðɛ asɛr ustɛðɛ kanaðiɛnsɛ no tɛnɛmo un pɾopio asɛnto ɛpaɲol]

[Carlos]

Pero yo lo hago. Es siempre divertido de haθer Nosostros canadienses no tenemos un propio accento español.

=O
Pero yo lo hago. Es siempre divertido de hacer. Ustedes Canadienses no tenemos un propio acento español.
[pɛɾo ʒo lo aɡo ɛ sjɛmpɾɛ ðiβɛɾtiðo ðɛ asɛr ustɛðɛ kanaðiɛnsɛ no tɛnɛmo un pɾopio asɛnto ɛpaɲol]

Do people from there normally use [ʒ] for <y>?

[communistplot]

Yeah, but that's not nearly as weird as some Argentinians who use [ʃ].

[Viktor77]

My Bolivian professor uses ceceo and I have no idea why. He allophones soft <c> and <z> to [D]. I've never witnessed any other Latin American use ceceo. If I was crazy, I'd say he's just doing it to fuck with us, or help us spell.

Do people from there normally use [ʒ] for <y>?

It's also common in Colombian Spanish in words like yo and ya. I've never really understood the extent of it though as occasionally I hear it in words like tuyo but then in others it will disappear and become [j] again.

[Anonimulo]

I'm almost sure that there are some users of ceceo/distinción in Latin America. Very small, yes, but. With vosotros and all, too. I might be remembering wrong, though.

But yeah, it's really just the south of Spain that uses seseo. And some of them use strictly ceceo, too. As in no /s/, just /T/.

Anyway, S dropping is not always a "native" thing. You can pronounce them all and sound "native". My sister's Spanish/Gallega best friend always pronounces her S's and always distinguishes her C/Z's and S's. But she speaks with yeísmo. (Also, my Argentine friend actually uses [S] for <y>. But my sister's Uruguayan BF uses [Z].) I generally dislike S dropping, though. :/ And D dropping. It just gets too messy for my ears, I guess.

But I know a lot of Spaniards and all of their distinción is consistent.

[Ser]

I've had two European Spanish teachers/professors so far, and both have made distinción (c/z is /θ/ but s is /s/) only sporadically. The first one was an American who learnt Spanish in Spain, but she didn't seem to have any natural distribution of /θ/ and /s/; she even pronounced quizás as /kiˈθaθ/ a few times. The second is a French L1 lady who grew up in Barcelona (without having learnt Catalan), and she seems only to use /θ/ after nasals (her entonces, for example, is without exception /enˈtonθes/). Both of them spoke otherwise without any accent that I could detect.

Is it normal for (some) Spaniards to be kind of wishy-washy in their application of distinción? Or is it just because my teachers learned the language imperfectly?

I've heard that there's quite a number of southerners today trying to acquire distinción as an influence from the standard, and they can be heard "confusing" /θ/ and /s/. Other than that, the people I've met from the centre and the north distinguished /θ/ and /s/ as supposed to. It may be that your teachers/professors simply learned distinción imperfectly.

In the south of Spain they don’t use /θ/; it's why Latin America doesn't either. I think this is called seseo.

Some use /s/ only, others use /θ/ only, others acquire distinción or are able to use it if they want to to varying degrees.

IME, any of the numerous dialectal variances in Spanish are wish-washy. [‎b] and [v] distinction, [s]-debuccalization, [d] dropping, [d] and [D] distinction, and seseo and ceceo. Of course I'm sure this is normal for all languages and there must be rules somewhere in the dialects, but it's pretty much random AFAICT. It seems to be based more on the sentence itself than the words.

[d] and [D] distinction? Whut?

I know that, myself, in an attempt to sound native, regarding [s]-debuccalization, drop the [s] as randomly as possible. I drop it when it's inconvenient, or when I'm too lazy to say it, or when it's word finally placed on a long word or sentence, etc. This is what I've observed native speakers do since I can't find any sort of logic to when they drop it.

First: "[s]-debuccalization" = pronouncing /s/ as [h]
"[s]-dropping" = not pronouncing /s/ at all
Keep them distinct.

Second: linguists explain them combining phonological environment (whether they are before a plosive, or an unstressed or stressed vowel...), register (more [s]s appear in higher registers), "education"/social status (more [s]s appear in the speech of people of higher status), and location (as these vary from place to place).

It's always dropped in Puerto Rican & Dominican speakers,

Documented to a degree in other Caribbean dialects too. It's also untrue that it's "always" dropped, register matters a lot too, making many [s]s and [h]s appear. Saying that it's always dropped would imply it's prestigious.

Listen to these interviews to some Puerto Rican and Dominican celebrities on TV, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WivlMA0gJyE
Juan Luis Guerra (Dominican Republic)
Dieciséis años [ˈðiesiseiˈsaɲos] (1:03), Boston [ˈbostoŋ] (1:18) [ˈbohtoŋ] (1:19),...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LKztwiiz0
Anaís Martínez (Dominican Republic)
Feliz [feˈlis] (0:30), buscamos [buhˈkamoh] (0:41)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3jCI5sIDhU
Jerry Rivera (Puerto Rico)
llevamos [ʝeˈamos] (0:49), vamos [ˈβamos] (1:28), maderas [maðeɾah] (1:56)...

else it's lenited to [h]. But only syllable finally.

Debuccalizing it in syllable-initial position is well documented in Central American dialects at that, and for some speakers in southern Spain where it's known as "heheo". E.g. El Salvador [el.hal.ba.ˈðoɾ]. I don't do it myself, but I can assure you many in El Salvador do.

In many dialects you can also find it in syllable-initial position technically speaking—across words. E.g. unos amigos [u.no.ha.ˈmi.ɣoh].

I would say Rodriguez as [xo.ðri.gɛ] rather than [ro.ðri.ɣeθ] or [ro.dri.ɡes].

[g] and [ðr]? For sure, and not [ɣ] and [ðɾ]: [xo.ˈðɾi.ɣɛ] or [ro.ˈðɾi.ɣes]?

As for distincion and ceceo/seseo: distincion is largely found in the north and near areas where other romance languages, such as Catalan, Leonese & Asturian, are spoken.

And also importantly: the central areas of Castile and Old Castile.

Ceceo/Seseo are interspersed throughout Spain, with the largest concentration of Seseo Spaniards in Andalusia and in Latin America, as stated above due to historical ties.

Ceceadores also belong mostly to parts of Andalusia...

I'm almost sure that there are some users of ceceo/distinción in Latin America. Very small, yes, but. With vosotros and all, too. I might be remembering wrong, though.

Both things are undocumented for today's dialects. There's reports of people in El Salvador and Bolivia having [θ], but they don't correspond to /θ/ and /s/.

[Carlos]

There's reports of people in El Salvador and Bolivia having [θ], but they don't correspond to /θ/ and /s/.

What does it correspond to then? /D/?

[Ser]

There's reports of people in El Salvador and Bolivia having [θ], but they don't correspond to /θ/ and /s/.

What does it correspond to then? /D/?

"/D/"?

I took that from Lipski's Latin American Spanish. He says that after extensive analysis of data no clear correspondences appeared, though. (In case it isn't clear: some words with /θ/ appeared with [θ] or [s], and the same for words with /s/.)

[lctrgzmn]

IME, any of the numerous dialectal variances in Spanish are wish-washy. and [v] distinction, [s]-debuccalization, [d] dropping, [d] and [D] distinction, and seseo and ceceo. Of course I'm sure this is normal for all languages and there must be rules somewhere in the dialects, but it's pretty much random AFAICT. It seems to be based more on the sentence itself than the words.

I know that, myself, in an attempt to sound native, regarding [s]-debuccalization, drop the [s] as randomly as possible. I drop it when it's inconvenient, or when I'm too lazy to say it, or when it's word finally placed on a long word or sentence, etc. This is what I've observed native speakers do since I can't find any sort of logic to when they drop it.

I think the fact Spanish has more space for allophones might have to do with that. I haven't really thought about it, but my dad doesn't actually use , and instead uses [v] or [β], while my mom always uses . Me, I alternate between , [v], and [β], though about 90% of the time I use [β].

I went to a wedding a while back, and the father at the wedding was trying to impress everyone by try out his little ceceo. It backfired on him, though, 'cause it seemed he didn't seem to know that c/z is supposedly pronounced [θ], so he sort of just decided to use [θ] whenever he wanted to, butchering up (in my opinion) words such as distinción as [diθtin'sjon], estupendo as [eθtu'pendo], and even satanás as [sata'naθ].

In Mexico, where I'm from at least, it's actually kind of common to make fun of the Spaniards and their ceceo. Countless times have my cousins and I watch REC and put on prissy voices and overdid our ceceos.

I do have a question regarding European Spanish, though. I've looked everywhere, but to me their /s/ sounds different, almost apical? It's no [s]. It almost sounds like a weak [ʂ], but not really. I don't know. Apart from alternating between [j], [ʝ], and [dʒ] for <y> and <ll>, I find my Spanish to be relatively normal -_-

[Ser]

and the father at the wedding was trying to impress everyone by try out his little [s]ceceo[/s] distinción.

The fuck? How is that supposed to impress anybody? Maybe he's originally from southern Spain, so he may be one of those people who think distinción is "the" correct pronunciation, even though can't use it themselves? (Ceceo is using [θ] for both /θ/ and /s/.)

In Mexico, where I'm from at least, it's actually kind of common to make fun of the Spaniards and their ceceo.

Correct, and fun of those with distinción too, just the presence of [θ] itself. This why I don't understand how ceceo or distinción could be impressive, Latin American countries have their own prestigious pronunciations independent from those of Spain.

I do have a question regarding European Spanish, though. I've looked everywhere, but to me their /s/ sounds different, almost apical? It's no [s]. It almost sounds like a weak [ʂ], but not really. I don't know.

Yeah, the one typically used in southern Spain and Latin American dialects (including all prestigious dialects) is predorsal-alveolar (the tip and part before the tip create constriction by placing the former towards the lower teeth and then the latter towards the alveolar ridge, in Spanish linguistics it's often called "predorsodental" as well for reasons unknown to me, it's really alveolar), while that typical of central and northern Spain and certain dialects in Latin America is apicoalveolar (by creating constriction between the tip and the alveolar ridge).