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zompist bboard • View topic - TC: Relative and complementizer clauses

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:33 pm 
Sumerul
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:39 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:52 pm 
Smeric
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Kinál:

Siřéiqʼó.
1S.EVID.certainty-2S-know
or
Siqʼó kʼá éiqʼó.
1S-know CONJ 2S-know
I know that you know.

Lksúgt smpʼcʼesau kʼá Ciak ňvrásné.
house.PAT 1S.3S-see-PST.REC CONJ Jack 3S.3S-build-PST.DIST
I saw the house that Jack built.

Ciak lksúgt siřňvrásné.
Jack house.PAT 1S.EVID.certainty-3S.3S-build-PST.DIST
or
Siqʼó kʼá Ciak lksúgt ňvrásné.
1S-know CONJ house.PAT 3S.3S-build-PST.DIST
I know that Jack built that house.

Lksúgt smpʼcʼesau kʼá Ciakgt anánqánasúsné.
house.PAT 1S.3S-see-PST.REC CONJ Jack.PAT PAT.3S-born.STAT.LOC-PST.DIST
I saw the house where Jack was born.

The shorter forms would be more common/informal.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:16 pm 
Sanci
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Hi I was just looking through the stuff and thought you might want to know how Korean language handle this kind of clauses.
I guess it could be slightly off-topic, since Korean doesn't have any relative pronouns or such, but wouldn't it be nice to know how some natlangs work this kind of clauses without them?
So, here we go, and sorry ahead for the poor pronounciation representations you are going to see. I really have no idea how to write it right.


Korean

나는 잭이 지은 집을 보았다.
/na-neun dzag-i dzi-eun dzib-eul po-ad-da/
1SG-NOM Jack-NOM build-PERF.ADJ house-ACC see-PERF-END
I saw the house that jack built.

나는 잭이 저 집을 지었다는 것을 안다.
/na-neun dzag-i dzeo dzib-eul dzi-eod-da-neun geos-eul an-da/
1SG-NOM Jack-NOM that house-ACC build-PERF-QUOTE.ADJ BN(bound noun)-ACC know-PRES-END
I know that Jack built that house.

나는 잭이 태어난 집을 보았다.
/na-neun dzag-i t(h)ae-eo-nan dzib-eul po-ad-da/
1SG-NOM Jack-NOM born-PERF.ADJ house-ACC see-PERF-END
I saw the house where Jack was born.

나는 네가 안다는 것을 안다.
/na-neun ne-ga an-da-neun keos-eul an-da/
1SG-NOM 2SG-NOM know-PRES-QUOTE.ADJ BD-ACC know-PRES-END
I know that you know.

나는 네가 아는 것을 안다.
/na-neun ne-ga a-neun keos-eul an-da/
1SG-NOM 2SG-NOM know-PRES.ADJ BD-ACC know-PRES-END
I know that you know or I know that which you know. It depends on the context

Korean language has means of turning pretty much everything into adjectives, even a whole sentence. So what we do is we turn the clause into an adjective, and make it modify the noun that in English would be modified by a relative clause.
For example, in the sentence 'I saw the house that jack built', the clause 'jack built' becomes adjective that modifies 'the house'.
In the sentence 'I know that you know,' 'that you know' doesn't have any noun it modifies. So we use a bound-noun. We also can use a noun, '사실'-'the fact,' for instance in this case, to clarify the meaning. But since normally the context tells us what it means, we usually stick to the bound-noun.

So, I thought, if your conlang is into nominalization or adjectivization, you don't really need a relative pronoun. Just nominalization is enough on its own.


Last edited by suelior on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:47 pm 
Avisaru
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Hmm, I had heard that Korean grammar was quite similar to Japanese. It seems that relative clauses work somewhat the same way.

I was going to do Aeruyo, but it's going to take new words and some figuring out structure on #3, so here's another natlang: Mandarin Chinese

我看见了夹克建立的房子。
wo3 kan4jian4 le jia1ke4 jian4li4 de fang2zi
1 see PRF Jack build REL house
I saw the house that jack built.

我知道夹克建立了那套房子。
wo3 zhi1dao4 jia1ke4 jian4li4 le na4 tao4 fang2zi
1 know Jack build PRF that MW house
I know that Jack built that house.

我看见了夹克出生里的房子。
wo1 kan4jian4 le jia1ke4 chu1sheng1 li3 de fang2zi
1 see PRF Jack be.born in REL house
I saw the house where Jack was born.

我知道你知道。
wo3 zhi1dao4 ni3 zhi1dao4
1 know 2 know
I know that you know.

I almost glossed 的 (de) as GEN, as it is also used for possession, but it really doesn't work that way, and here it is definitely a relativizer. I also love that Chinese complement clauses essentially take no marking, which is especially fun for 我知道你知道 "I know (that) you know."

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:10 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:30 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:53 am 
Sumerul
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Didn't your username use to have a 3 in it?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:55 am 
Avisaru
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Yeah, but I got rid of it a while ago...I guess you people don't forget things easily..

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:10 am 
Sumerul
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It's more likely that Renaçido hasn't actually read your username in a while.

(but yeah, we tend to use and refer to people by their old usernames, or the username under which they become most 'known'... hence "Marion Blancard" is referred to as geoff or bricka, and Xephyr is often referred to as Cev, short for Cevlakohn, which is a username he hasn't used on here since about 2004 or 5 – although I think he still uses that on IRC – but Lyhoko Leaci isn't referred to by his older username because nobody really remembers him from "back then")


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:16 am 
Sumerul
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:41 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:53 am 
Avisaru
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Hebrew handles both types the same, like in English. Hebrew uses the relativizing prefix ש she-, which derives from the word אשר asher, originally having a spatial meaning, AKAIK, and cognate with the word אתר, "site" (which is a loanword from Aramaic):

ראיתי את הבית שבנה ג'ק.
ra'i-ti et ha-bait she-bana jeck.
see.PST-1S ACC DEF-house REL-build.PST.3S Jack.
I saw the house that jack built.

אני יודע שג'ק בנה את הבית הזה.
ani yode'a she-jeck bana et ha-bait ha-ze.

I know that Jack built that house.

ראיתי את הבית בו נולד ג'ק.
ra'i-ti et ha-bait bo nolad jeck.

I saw the house where Jack was born.

This one is exceptional there is no relativizer; I assume this is due to historical circumstances concerning the development of this type of sentence and the overlapping usage of the relativizer. It is also possible to form this sentence with the relativizer ש she- before the word בו bo-; that form is less formal.

אני יודע שאתה יודע.
ani yode'a she-'ata yode'a.

I know that you know.

I might add my conlang, Athonian, later, but I've gotta go now.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:00 am 
Sanci
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:18 am 
Sumerul
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AFAIK, it's used mainly by linguists because it preserves the morphemic structure of Hangul, and by pretty much no-one else. It's not meant to be a good way of representing how it's pronounced.

If you can't input IPA characters on your phone, look up X-SAMPA, which is an equivalent that uses only basic ASCII characters. Some people on here still use it, and most of us understand it.

Use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_Korean as your starting point. That way you don't have to learn the whole IPA if you just want to write pronunciation guides to Korean. We tend to recommend that you learn the rest of the IPA for conlanging purposes, though.

The following are the X-SAMPA equivalents for the IPA symbols not in your standard 26 Roman letters:
ɕ → s\
dʑ → dz\
kʰ → k_h
ŋ → N
pʰ → p_h
ɾ → 4 (but I would write r because there is no contrast between the two)
tʰ → t_h
tɕ → ts\
tɕʰ → ts\_h
ɛ → E
ʌ → V
ɯ → M
ɰi → M\i
əː → @:
ː → : (long vowel, not used in Seoul)
´ → _H (high tone vowel, not used in Seoul)

The character they use for the "tense" consonants isn't a standard IPA character, but that's because a lot of people aren't sure what it is. In X-SAMPA I would use [p*], [t*], etc.

Also, are you Korean, or are you just in Seoul?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:30 am 
Sanci
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Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:48 am
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I think in "Flokrati" the syntax is similar to romanic languages or english:

Sirtidö evalòn vür Jack cromàridör.
I+saw house+the that Jack built
I saw the house that Jack built.

Bräli gi Jack cromàridör vür evà.
I+know that Jack built that house
I know that Jack built that house.

Sirtidö evalòn, vür rin Jack dhösjàmidör.
I+saw house+the, that in Jack was+born
I saw the house where Jack was born.

8)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:37 am 
Sumerul
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Not quite, especially in the third one, although you seem to use 'that' for a demonstrative and a relative pronoun, which I'd say is very Englishy.

Also you might want to look up glossing rules... your verbs at the end seem to end in idör, which I'm going to guess is a past morpheme of some description, so we would normally write it in the gloss as that specifically (eg build-PAST rather than built)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:49 am 
Sanci
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:53 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:09 pm 
Sumerul
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:42 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:05 pm 
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