Maori

[Turtlehead]

Ask me a question, I have the Reed reference grammar of maori.

[Xephyr]

Bully for you. I have six Maori grammars.

[Turtlehead]

Bully for you. I have six Maori grammars.

have read them all?

Ka korero koe i te reo Maori?

[Xephyr]

Bully for you. I have six Maori grammars.

have read them all?

Ka korero koe i te reo Maori?

No.

But anyway, I'll bite. Say, Turtlehead, what're relative clauses like in Maori?

[Turtlehead]

Bully for you. I have six Maori grammars.

have read them all?

Ka korero koe i te reo Maori?

No.

But anyway, I'll bite. Say, Turtlehead, what're relative clauses like in Maori?

chapter 37, page 564

Relative clauses Only examples, specific surounding text by request.

Ka mohio au ki te wahine e waiata ana i te huarahi ra
TAM know Isg to the woman TAM sing TAM at the street dist
I know the woman who is singing in that street.

[Miekko]

Please learn to write better glosses, dude. That's about as helpful as


nahahapoarg shfaoshwl hoslh.w

would've been.

also, learn to write coherent English. And learn to make informative posts.

[Turtlehead]

Please learn to write better glosses, dude. That's about as helpful as


nahahapoarg shfaoshwl hoslh.w

would've been.

also, learn to write coherent English. And learn to make informative posts.

That's the gloss in the book

[finlay]

... TAM means tense/aspect/mood, right?

Yeah, that's not really acceptable in a gloss where we might actually want to know what tense, what aspect, and what mood is being marked. Don't really care if it's in the book or not. What do you think that tells me about the book?

[Shm Jay]

Or it could refer to one of these hats that the Māori like to wear:



Or maybe these crackers the Māori like to eat:

[Yaali Annar]

Turtlehead, can you give me the sound changes from Proto Austronesian to Maori?

[Turtlehead]

... TAM means tense/aspect/mood, right?

Yeah, that's not really acceptable in a gloss where we might actually want to know what tense, what aspect, and what mood is being marked. Don't really care if it's in the book or not. What do you think that tells me about the book?

It's a heretical linguistic book and should be burnt?

TAM would mean that.
Ka - is for the future
Ka haere au ki te whare paku
I will go to the toilet

Kua - past perfect
Kua haere au ki te whare paku
I have gone to the toilet

E ... ana - continuous present
E haere ana au ki te whare paku
I am going to the toilet

I - past
I haere au ki te whare paku
I went to the toilet

There are more but I can't think of them.

[Turtlehead]

Turtlehead, can you give me the sound changes from Proto Austronesian to Maori?

Proto-Austronesian Consonants
p /p/ - p
t /t/ - t
k /k/ - k
q /q/[3] or /ʔ/ - h
b /b/ - p
d /d/ - t
D /ɖ/ - gone
g /ɡ/; j /ɡʲ/ - k
m /m/ - m
n /n/ - n
ɲ /ɲ/ - n or gone
ŋ /ŋ/ - ng
S /s/ - wh or h
s /ç/ - wh or h
h /h/ - h
C /t͡s/ - gone
c /c͡ç/,[4] z /ɟ͡ʝ/[5] - wh
l /l/ - r
N /lʲ/ - n or ng
r /ɾ/; R /r/ or /ʀ/[6] - r
w /w/ - w
y /j/ - gone or a vowel

h k m n p r t w ng wh

Dialects
Northern is standard
Tuhoe ng becomes n
Southern North Island wh is w though still spelt the same
Taranaki wh is w though still spelt the same and h becomes glottal stop
South Island ng is k

Maybe other peculiarities that I don't know

[Skomakar'n]

Ka korero koe i te reo Maori?

Could you translate, gloss and transcribe the pronunciation of that?

Bonus: if you really can, also show the same sentence in [an]other polynesian language[s], and if not all words are the same, still show possible cognates.

[Imralu]

Ka - is for the future
Ka haere au ki te whare paku
I will go to the toilet

From what I've read, ka isn't a marker of future tense but something like a very weak inceptive aspect, or a perfective aspect marker. It may often be used for the future, but it can also be used to talk about the present or past.

[quote="In "Let's Learn Maori", Bruce Biggs"]It should be noted that the verbal particle ka has no time significance. It simply marks its phrase as verbal and as the predicate of the sentence. Since English demands the selection of a time-marking tense, the present tense has been chosen to translate the Maori examples.

Ka kai, te rangatira. The chief eats.
Ka inu, te hoiho. The horse drinks.
Ka oma, te kooriro. The girl runs.
Ka haere, te wahine. The woman goes.
Ka karanga, te kuia. The old woman calls.[/quote]

Kua - past perfect
Kua haere au ki te whare paku
I have gone to the toilet

That's actually present perfect. Past perfect is "I had gone to the toilet."

[quote="In "Let's Learn Maori", Bruce Biggs"]
We have already learned that actions and states are expressed by verbal phrases which are introduced by verbal particles; but we have used only the particle ka which simply indicates that the phrase is verbal without saying anything about the time of the action or state. Most of the other verbal particles are also timeless, in fact only one, the 'past' particle i unambiguously indicates time. All other verbal particles refer to the nature or aspect of the action or state denoted by the verbal phrase.

The verbal particles form a paradigm. One may be substituted for another to conjugate the verbal phrase, but no two verbal particles may occur together in the same phrase.

8.1THE PARADIGM OF VERBAL PARTICLES.

Ka (Inceptive) Ka has no specific reference to time though it is often used when the time is in fact future. It is always used when a new action is beginning. Hence the gloss 'inceptive'.

I (Past) Always indicate that the action is in the past.

Kua (Perfect) Indicates that the action is complete, usually in the fairly recent past.

Kia (Desiderative) Indicates that it would be desirable for something to occur or exist. In a subordinate clause, kia indicates purporse.

Me (Prescriptive) Indicates that something should or must be done.

E (Non-past) Action or state that is present or future. (See e ... ana below.)

Kei (Warning) Translated by 'do not' or 'lest'

Ina ~ ana (Punctative/Conditional) Ina occurs only in subordinate clauses. It indicates the point of time at which an action takes place, with the stipulation 'if it takes place.' Pedantically, ina should be translated 'if and when' but in most contexts one of the two conjunctions will be more appropriate than the other. Ana is in free variation with ina.

E ... ana (Imperfect) The combination of e 'non-past' and the postposed particle ana 'imperfect' indicates that the action or state is incomplete and continuous.[/quote]

That book also gives the example:

Ina tae te tangata ra ki taawaahi, ka mate ia.
PUNCT/COND arrive/reach DEF.SG man there to other.side, INCEP dead 3sg
"When that man reaches the other side, he will die.

[Kuturere Reo]

Turtlehead, can you give me the sound changes from Proto Austronesian to Maori?

Proto-Austronesian Consonants
p /p/ - p
t /t/ - t
k /k/ - k
q /q/[3] or /ʔ/ - h
b /b/ - p
d /d/ - t
D /ɖ/ - gone
g /ɡ/; j /ɡʲ/ - k
m /m/ - m
n /n/ - n
ɲ /ɲ/ - n or gone
ŋ /ŋ/ - ng
S /s/ - wh or h
s /ç/ - wh or h
h /h/ - h
C /t͡s/ - gone
c /c͡ç/,[4] z /ɟ͡ʝ/[5] - wh
l /l/ - r
N /lʲ/ - n or ng
r /ɾ/; R /r/ or /ʀ/[6] - r
w /w/ - w
y /j/ - gone or a vowel

h k m n p r t w ng wh

Dialects
Northern is standard
Tuhoe ng becomes n
Southern North Island wh is w though still spelt the same
Taranaki wh is w though still spelt the same and h becomes glottal stop
South Island ng is k

Maybe other peculiarities that I don't know

Have my doubts about the accuracy of this - for instance Proto Polynesian glottal stop is zero in Māori but Turtlehead's list appears to say it became h. Also while PPN had *s and *h but the latter got lost before Eastern Polynesian so I think Eastern Polynesian h is from *s. Could be wrong.


Ka kōrero koe i te reo Māori
inceptive speak you.sg accusative definite.sg language Māori

ka is definitely not future

Never heard that Southern North Island wh is w
In the far north wh is a very slight aspirate, almost an h but not really
Taranaki w is w but wh in some tribes is glottalised w, and h is glottal stop in some tribes
South Island ng is not universally k; it is only regionally k, etc

[Turtlehead]

Reo welcome to the ZBB. No hea koe?

[Xephyr]

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:11 pm

!!!

[Turtlehead]

Most interesting

[Turtlehead]

Have my doubts about the accuracy of this - for instance Proto Polynesian glottal stop is zero in Māori but Turtlehead's list appears to say it became h. Also while PPN had *s and *h but the latter got lost before Eastern Polynesian so I think Eastern Polynesian h is from *s. Could be wrong.

Samoan has *s, *l, *v
tasi vs tahi - one
lua vs rua - two
iva vs iwa - nine

[Kuturere Reo]

Have my doubts about the accuracy of this - for instance Proto Polynesian glottal stop is zero in Māori but Turtlehead's list appears to say it became h. Also while PPN had *s and *h but the latter got lost before Eastern Polynesian so I think Eastern Polynesian h is from *s. Could be wrong.

Samoan has *s, *l, *v
tasi vs tahi - one
lua vs rua - two
iva vs iwa - nine

You are missing my point. Samoan is not Eastern Polynesian btw.

PPN glottal stop cf Tongan 'alofa, mala'e vs Māori aroha, marae (love, ceremonial plaza) = zero in Māori

PPN *h cf Tongan kanahe, Māori kanae (mullet) = zero in Māori

PPN *s cf Tongan hina, Maori hina, Samoan sina. (grey-haired) = h in M.

[Salmoneus]

Turtlehead doesn't know what he's talking about and/or is trolling? Welcome to 2005!

More seriously: welcome, Reo. Always good to have somebody coherent around here.

[Turtlehead]

Have my doubts about the accuracy of this - for instance Proto Polynesian glottal stop is zero in Māori but Turtlehead's list appears to say it became h. Also while PPN had *s and *h but the latter got lost before Eastern Polynesian so I think Eastern Polynesian h is from *s. Could be wrong.

Samoan has *s, *l, *v
tasi vs tahi - one
lua vs rua - two
iva vs iwa - nine

You are missing my point. Samoan is not Eastern Polynesian btw.

PPN glottal stop cf Tongan 'alofa, mala'e vs Māori aroha, marae (love, ceremonial plaza) = zero in Māori

PPN *h cf Tongan kanahe, Māori kanae (mullet) = zero in Māori

PPN *s cf Tongan hina, Maori hina, Samoan sina. (grey-haired) = h in M.

Also moe in tongan is mohe, so I kind of understand. I actually did the sound change off my head with very little research. Of course it would be flawed.

So did EP descend from Tongan or Samoan?

[Turtlehead]

Reo welcome to the ZBB. No hea koe?

Anei, no hea koe?

[Miekko]

So did EP descend from Tongan or Samoan?

Do you even know how linguistic taxonomy works, what it tries to classify and what it means?

[Ser]

Turtlehead doesn't know what he's talking about and/or is trolling?

Trolling.