Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

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Mr. Z
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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Mr. Z »

Shm Jay wrote:The way I see it, if I have learned after much struggle to pronounce ح and‎ ع and ط,and ق, I'm certainly going to pronounce their Hebrew counterparts that way (ח and ע and ט and ק) no matter how antique and rural I may sound.
Actually, I've never heard anyone pronounce ט as anything other than [t]. Not even Mizrahi speakers. Or at least that what I think.
Astraios wrote:
Mr. Z wrote:You know, we barely have any allophony, I think.
There's voicing of /S/ before /b d g v/, and /S/>/s/ in the word /jeS/ before words beginning with /s/... Anything else? :|
Yeah, there's some voicing assimilation, which leads to funny situations - לסגור and לזכור always confuse me, because their "correct" pronunciation would be /lisgor/ [lizgor] and /lizkor/ [lizkor]. The voicing of the /s/ in /lisgor/ makes it very similar to /lizkor/, and maybe there's some devoicing in /lizkor/ as well, which makes it all even more weird. As for the /S/>/s/ thing, I don't have it and I've never heard it, but I'm pretty careful with my pronunciation. In addition to this allophony, I sometimes use a fricative /r/ instead of an approximant; I'm hoping it might be conditional allophony rather than just arbiraty distribution, but I'm not sure. I think it might be happening around dorsal consonants, but I don't know exactly where...
Přemysl wrote:
Kereb wrote:they are nerdissimus inter nerdes
Oh god, we truly are nerdy. My first instinct was "why didn't he just use sunt and have it all in Latin?".
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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Khvaragh »

Shm Jay wrote:The way I see it, if I have learned after much struggle to pronounce ح and‎ ع and ط,and ق, I'm certainly going to pronounce their Hebrew counterparts that way (ח and ע and ט and ק) no matter how antique and rural I may sound.
If I'm reading something to myself, I use a Mizrahi accent. Not if I'm actually saying something to someone though; like if I'm saying צום קל "[have an] easy fast" to my Jewish friend during Yom Kippur, I don't say [s_?\om qal], but [ts)om kal], because they would be like what the hell are you trying to say, and then I'm have to explain how I'm using an obscure archaic dialectal pronunciation...too much trouble.
Mr. Z wrote:
Shm Jay wrote:The way I see it, if I have learned after much struggle to pronounce ح and‎ ع and ط,and ق, I'm certainly going to pronounce their Hebrew counterparts that way (ח and ע and ט and ק) no matter how antique and rural I may sound.
Actually, I've never heard anyone pronounce ט as anything other than [t]. Not even Mizrahi speakers. Or at least that what I think
The pharyngealization (more like velarizaton really) seems very light, true, and idiosyncratic, true, but I've occasionally heard it, particularly in words with other pharyngeals like טעם"taste". For tsadi though, it's definitely there. It actually reminds me a lot of the upper-class pronunciations of the emphatics here in Egypt, which are either lightly velarized or (in the case of my boyfriend, for example), only accompanied by a backing of the surrounding vowels, instead of pharygealized.
لا يرقىء الله عيني من بكى حجراً
ولا شفى وجد من يصبو إلى وتدِ
("May God never dry the tears of those who cry over stones, nor ease the love-pangs of those who yearn for tent-pegs.") - Abu Nawas

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

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Khvaragh wrote:
Shm Jay wrote:The way I see it, if I have learned after much struggle to pronounce ح and‎ ع and ط,and ق, I'm certainly going to pronounce their Hebrew counterparts that way (ח and ע and ט and ק) no matter how antique and rural I may sound.
If I'm reading something to myself, I use a Mizrahi accent. Not if I'm actually saying something to someone though; like if I'm saying צום קל "[have an] easy fast" to my Jewish friend during Yom Kippur, I don't say [s_?\om qal], but [ts)om kal], because they would be like what the hell are you trying to say, and then I'm have to explain how I'm using an obscure archaic dialectal pronunciation...too much trouble.
Mr. Z wrote:
Shm Jay wrote:The way I see it, if I have learned after much struggle to pronounce ح and‎ ع and ط,and ق, I'm certainly going to pronounce their Hebrew counterparts that way (ח and ע and ט and ק) no matter how antique and rural I may sound.
Actually, I've never heard anyone pronounce ט as anything other than [t]. Not even Mizrahi speakers. Or at least that what I think
The pharyngealization (more like velarizaton really) seems very light, true, and idiosyncratic, true, but I've occasionally heard it, particularly in words with other pharyngeals like טעם"taste". For tsadi though, it's definitely there. It actually reminds me a lot of the upper-class pronunciations of the emphatics here in Egypt, which are either lightly velarized or (in the case of my boyfriend, for example), only accompanied by a backing of the surrounding vowels, instead of pharygealized.
Do you speak Hebrew?
Přemysl wrote:
Kereb wrote:they are nerdissimus inter nerdes
Oh god, we truly are nerdy. My first instinct was "why didn't he just use sunt and have it all in Latin?".
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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Astraios »

L'alphabētarium wrote:@Astraios: He may still be pronouncing "cool" as [kʉɫ] instead of [kuɫ], especially if he's from the South/South-East of England.
Hmm... [kʉɫ] sounds Northern to me. [kuw] (or something) would be more Southern/London.

finlay wrote:(I also say something like [kʉɫ] rather than [kuɫ] usually, partly because the L vocalises to [w] a lot of the time and it'd disappear after , so it's easier to keep it distinct by saying [ʉw]. But an there is more likely than anywhere else.)
I have long with maybe an off-glide/approximant thing for /u:l/, and every other /u:/ is [ʉ]-ish.

Mr. Z wrote:Yeah, there's some voicing assimilation, which leads to funny situations - לסגור and לזכור always confuse me, because their "correct" pronunciation would be /lisgor/ [lizgor] and /lizkor/ [lizkor]. The voicing of the /s/ in /lisgor/ makes it very similar to /lizkor/, and maybe there's some devoicing in /lizkor/ as well, which makes it all even more weird.
That assimilation is definitely not complete though, because you'd still pronounce [lisgor] and [lizkor] if you were speaking carefully.

Mr. Z wrote:As for the /S/>/s/ thing, I don't have it and I've never heard it, but I'm pretty careful with my pronunciation.
Go listen to קוצים by Idan Raichel, they sing [jes:Xut] for /jeS sXut/.

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Khvaragh »

Mr. Z wrote: Do you speak Hebrew?
"Speak" is a overstatement; I can read/understand it decently, albeit as I said before, I can barely understand spoken Modern Hebrew because of all the mergers; I learned Arabic first, which makes recognizing cognates easier to the least in writing. In speech though, it's extremely difficult for me to do that.
لا يرقىء الله عيني من بكى حجراً
ولا شفى وجد من يصبو إلى وتدِ
("May God never dry the tears of those who cry over stones, nor ease the love-pangs of those who yearn for tent-pegs.") - Abu Nawas

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by AnTeallach »

Astraios wrote:
finlay wrote:(I also say something like [kʉɫ] rather than [kuɫ] usually, partly because the L vocalises to [w] a lot of the time and it'd disappear after , so it's easier to keep it distinct by saying [ʉw]. But an there is more likely than anywhere else.)
I have long with maybe an off-glide/approximant thing for /u:l/, and every other /u:/ is [ʉ]-ish.


That's what I used to think I had, but then I had a look at the formants in Praat and it seems that even the pre-/l/ allophone starts off fairly central; what distinguishes it is that it then glides backwards: [kʉuɫ] or something like that. Similarly for GOAT: centralised monophthong (or near monophthong) in most positions, diphthong with centralised start and back finish before /l/.

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Kereb »

saw a King of the Hill rerun a while ago
had to cringe every time I heard Bobby talk about [tʰɑːkʰɛʉ bweijːnɛʉ]
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Travis B. »

Kereb wrote:saw a King of the Hill rerun a while ago
had to cringe every time I heard Bobby talk about [tʰɑːkʰɛʉ bweijːnɛʉ]
I would be shocked of Bobby Hill didn't absolutely butcher Spanish pronunciation, in a Texan accent of course.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by ---- »

You're posting about King of the Hill in this thread and you didn't even mention Peggy?

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Nate »

In my high school French class (first or second year), we had our usual short oral presentations. It was on likes and dislikes. So, one guy got up there, completely clueless, and started off with "Je m'appelle soccer (My name is soccer)." Cue the entire class laughing. I have no flippin' clue what he was thinking.

Another one would be this past semester. Spanish I class, and everyone can speak it decently well (cool teachers teach best). BUT, in the oral exam, a guy started off to tell his hobbies... by telling us "me gusto (I pleasure myself)" as opposed to the usual "me gusta (it pleasures me)." Only a few people laugh (including me), but he catches on that he did something wrong. So, he tried again... thinking his pronunciation was off, and therefore said, again, "Me gusto" with exaggerated accent and nodding head. I lost it right there. Eventually he gave up. Funniest moment in that class.

French wasn't without its problems either. Mostly, it was the usually pronunciation problems, pronouncing everything as if in English. Ugh, next semester I'm getting the professor to start off the class with pronunciation rules. Which is what my German professor did, and everyone's pronunciation is spot on, as far as this native English speaker can tell.

Not that I'm flawless, of course. During my oral presentation in Spanish, I used the male form of many adjectives that should be in feminine. I caught myself at the end of most of them, but still, it was funny.

Me: Mi madre es muy bajo - gah, what am I doing? >_<
Professor: You just have a very masculine family. :D
I am nerd, hear me /ɹoʊɹ/!

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by ol bofosh »

I often make mistakes with gender in Spanish. Having to show the gender and singular/plural in the adjective confuses me sometimes. Recently I said "Està muy simpatica pero demasiado entusiastica." I believe it should be demasiada. (And I was talking about my boxer.)

Oh yes, and the first time I realised that año is not the same as ano. I quickly learnt that lesson!
"¿Cuantos anos tienes?" Ahem... :oops:

The difference between ser and estar is sometimes not very clear for me. I generally think along the lines of cómo está (how is it) and qué es (what is it) questions.
It was about time I changed this.

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Ziz »

treegod wrote:I often make mistakes with gender in Spanish. Having to show the gender and singular/plural in the adjective confuses me sometimes. Recently I said "Està muy simpatica pero demasiado entusiastica." I believe it should be demasiada. (And I was talking about my boxer.)

Oh yes, and the first time I realised that año is not the same as ano. I quickly learnt that lesson!
"¿Cuantos anos tienes?" Ahem... :oops:

The difference between ser and estar is sometimes not very clear for me. I generally think along the lines of cómo está (how is it) and qué es (what is it) questions.
Nope, demasiado is right, actually. It's an adverb in this case, because it's modifying an adjective, so it's invariable. You only inflect it when it's modifying a noun.
Khvaragh wrote:
Shm Jay wrote:What’s wrong with using a Mizrahi pronunciation?
AFAIK, most Israelis seem to find it rustic or rural, so yes, I'd say the comparison with a Texas accent for Americans is spot-on. Sad though, because I despise the Ashkenazi/Sephari hybrid thing that is Israeli Hebrew standard pronunciation, but it's not up to me :| (spoken Israeli Hebrew is also almost impossible for me to understand, while Mizrahi is much easier.) Which is why I never even pretend to be able to speak Modern Hebrew, only saying I can read Biblical/Mishnaic.
I agree. Hebrew phonology got all the fun sucked out of it, but I guess that's just a side-effect of the language revival process. Too bad it's rather late in the process to make a statement and reintroduce all the lost consonants. I wonder, though, if the process of losing pharyngeals and pharyngealized consonants wasn't already well on its way even in Mishnaic times, because the Wikipedia article mentions that א and ע were occasionally confused. Also, Hebrew borrowed words from Greek and Latin with pharyngeals stops ט and ק instead of plain ת and כ, although this could just be to avoid spirantization...

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by ol bofosh »

Antirri wrote:
treegod wrote:I often make mistakes with gender in Spanish. Having to show the gender and singular/plural in the adjective confuses me sometimes. Recently I said "Està muy simpatica pero demasiado entusiastica." I believe it should be demasiada. (And I was talking about my boxer.)
Nope, demasiado is right, actually. It's an adverb in this case, because it's modifying an adjective, so it's invariable. You only inflect it when it's modifying a noun.
Aaaah! Okay, I knew I had heard "demasiada", so I knew it was inflected in some circustances. So when it modifies a noun it's inflected, right, thanks. :)

And I've just realised a mistake from my previous post: simpática not simpatica; entusiástica not entusiatica.
It was about time I changed this.

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Mr. Z »

Antirri wrote:
treegod wrote:I often make mistakes with gender in Spanish. Having to show the gender and singular/plural in the adjective confuses me sometimes. Recently I said "Està muy simpatica pero demasiado entusiastica." I believe it should be demasiada. (And I was talking about my boxer.)

Oh yes, and the first time I realised that año is not the same as ano. I quickly learnt that lesson!
"¿Cuantos anos tienes?" Ahem... :oops:

The difference between ser and estar is sometimes not very clear for me. I generally think along the lines of cómo está (how is it) and qué es (what is it) questions.
Nope, demasiado is right, actually. It's an adverb in this case, because it's modifying an adjective, so it's invariable. You only inflect it when it's modifying a noun.
Khvaragh wrote:
Shm Jay wrote:What’s wrong with using a Mizrahi pronunciation?
AFAIK, most Israelis seem to find it rustic or rural, so yes, I'd say the comparison with a Texas accent for Americans is spot-on. Sad though, because I despise the Ashkenazi/Sephari hybrid thing that is Israeli Hebrew standard pronunciation, but it's not up to me :| (spoken Israeli Hebrew is also almost impossible for me to understand, while Mizrahi is much easier.) Which is why I never even pretend to be able to speak Modern Hebrew, only saying I can read Biblical/Mishnaic.
I agree. Hebrew phonology got all the fun sucked out of it, but I guess that's just a side-effect of the language revival process. Too bad it's rather late in the process to make a statement and reintroduce all the lost consonants. I wonder, though, if the process of losing pharyngeals and pharyngealized consonants wasn't already well on its way even in Mishnaic times, because the Wikipedia article mentions that א and ע were occasionally confused. Also, Hebrew borrowed words from Greek and Latin with pharyngeals stops ט and ק instead of plain ת and כ, although this could just be to avoid spirantization...
Well, Arabic seems to do the same thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantiniyye
إمبراطور for "emperor"
And I guess there are other examples, too.
Přemysl wrote:
Kereb wrote:they are nerdissimus inter nerdes
Oh god, we truly are nerdy. My first instinct was "why didn't he just use sunt and have it all in Latin?".
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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Khvaragh »

Antirri wrote: I agree. Hebrew phonology got all the fun sucked out of it, but I guess that's just a side-effect of the language revival process. Too bad it's rather late in the process to make a statement and reintroduce all the lost consonants. I wonder, though, if the process of losing pharyngeals and pharyngealized consonants wasn't already well on its way even in Mishnaic times, because the Wikipedia article mentions that א and ע were occasionally confused.
Probably depends on the dialect, I'd say. Samaritan Hebrew, for example, is well-know for having lost the laryngeals-gutturals, or /?\/, /X\/, /?/, and /h/ (merged into /?/), likely under influence from Samaritan Aramaic, which had the same development. Babylonian Mishnaic Hebrew also likely had some dialectal mergers, again probably under influence from Eastern Aramaic (which merged the gutturals under influence from Babylonian Akkadian, for example, Mandaic). Keep in mind that in places where Hebrew was spoken during this period, it was often a learned language, while some form of Aramaic or another local language was the mother tongue, or at least a co-primary language. Koine Greek also influenced the dialects of certain areas to lose the laryngeals. The Talmud, in Megillah 24b, references that some of the Galilean dialects did not distinguish between the laryngeals. The pharyngealized consonants on the other hand (/t_?\/, /q~k_?\/, and /s_?\/), are typically retained longer, with Akkadian, Eastern Aramaic, and Samaritan Hebrew for example, all preserving them to varying degrees.
Antirri wrote:Also, Hebrew borrowed words from Greek and Latin with pharyngeals stops ט and ק instead of plain ת and כ, although this could just be to avoid spirantization...
This is nothing special. Most Semitic languages historically borrowed non-Semitic words with t, k, and p-like sounds (varying s-like too) and used empathics to render them. In the case of Hebrew and Aramaic, one could say this is due to the intervocalic spirantization of the stops, but the fact that Arabic and Ge`ez do the same thing with Greek words (and do not have intervocalic spirantization) points to a broad systematic usage, IMO, with the spirantization being secondary. Most of the time, this seems to be related to the fact that these borrowed words usually have unaspirated stops, which probably sounded closer to the empathics than the regular or voiced series. Certain varieties of Hebrew even innovated an emphatic /p/ (written with a flipped pe) to spell Greek words with an unaspirated /p/. Ge`ez, on the other hand, has a very unusual (for Semitic languages) three voiceless labial phonemes, /f/, /p/, and /p'/. The latter two are usually used in borrowed words, but there are a few rare words which contain them that are unlikely to be borrowed.
لا يرقىء الله عيني من بكى حجراً
ولا شفى وجد من يصبو إلى وتدِ
("May God never dry the tears of those who cry over stones, nor ease the love-pangs of those who yearn for tent-pegs.") - Abu Nawas

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by langover94 »

I know Nat King Cole was trying to make a tribute to Bossa Nova, but this is just a painful attempt at Brazilian Portuguese...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzsjkC36Zx0
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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by ---- »

I heard someone pronounce the Chinese phrase cào nǐ mā, "Fuck your mother" as [ˈtʰæwnɪ ˈmaː]. Gotta love that over-anglicization.

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Skomakar'n »

Theta wrote:I heard someone pronounce the Chinese phrase cào nǐ mā, "Fuck your mother" as [ˈtʰæwnɪ ˈmaː]. Gotta love that over-anglicization.
It's not terrible, though...
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I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
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Of an Ernst'ian one.

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by ---- »

It is by the fact that they're ignoring all semblance of tone and fronting the <ao> diphthong as if it was an English word. If not terrible, it's pretty bad.

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Re: Terrible attempts by English speakers at foreign tongues

Post by Skomakar'n »

Theta wrote:It is by the fact that they're ignoring all semblance of tone and fronting the <ao> diphthong as if it was an English word. If not terrible, it's pretty bad.
Oh. I automatically read that IPA with tones applied. Didn't even occur to me that you didn't mark them with the IPA.
Online dictionary for my conlang Vanga: http://royalrailway.com/tungumaalMiin/Vanga/

#undef FEMALE

I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688

Of an Ernst'ian one.

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