Conlangery Podcast (Latest Ep: #94: Face and Politeness)

[Jipí]

AFAICT, most conlangs that've been reviewed so far were from someone either from the ZBB or Conlang-L .Shouldn't be terribly difficult to find ways to contact people that way.

[Ollock]

It would be impractical for us to contact every conlanger we feature as many do not have easily accessible contact information.

You do...what, one show a week? Besides, even if some conlangers are hard to get a hold of, others are not. Your policy of not even making an effort to contact any of them because some of them will be hard to find is pretty stupid.

That said, we probably should take a little more time and attempt to contact those people who are available, such as yourself.

The policy is more about legal and ethical issues than anything else. I feel that anything published on the open Internet is by default public information and therefore fair game to comment on. The same would go for published books, though we often don't review languages that are only detailed in offline resources for reasons of practicality (we have no money to buy books, and no one is going to send review copies to a podcast with only a couple hundred listeners). Also understand that all of the co-hosts have other things going on in life and may not always have time to track down a conlanger before we review their language.

South Eresian could be considered sort of a gray area. There is information out there on the blog, but not a formal grammar. I felt that the information on the blog was complete enough for us to comment on. Risla is of a different opinion.

[Drydic]

Well you've just talked one conlanger out of posting their in-progress work online ever.

[Wattmann]

Well you've just talked one conlanger out of posting their in-progress work online ever.

And convinced one to hide his conlang in the Frathernity until it's ready.

[Rodlox]

It would be impractical for us to contact every conlanger we feature as many do not have easily accessible contact information.

You do...what, one show a week? Besides, even if some conlangers are hard to get a hold of, others are not. Your policy of not even making an effort to contact any of them because some of them will be hard to find is pretty stupid.

once burned, twice shy...how many times should they be burned by bouncing emails, invalid emails, no provided emails, and other difficulties of the type?

[Ollock]

Now, let's just hold onto things a minute. Here's a few things that have to be considered:

- We all know that no conlang is ever "finished". It's just not possible within a human lifetime to even understand, let alone create, everything that could possibly go into a constructed language.
- This community, traditionally, has been very open about sharing work in progress and helping each other out.
- Conlangery features conlangs every week as a way to highlight certain community members
- With so few conlangers, we have to dig sometimes to find a conlang to feature. We try to use our judgment to figure out what conlangs are best to feature.
- We try to find conlangs that have a decent amount of information online. This has led to us using "draft copies" and less formalized information from time to time.
- We are human and can make mistakes. After all, this podcast is less than a year old (and my first podcast), so there are a lot of things to learn.

The "policy" I mentioned before is really just a habit. I could set a real policy to at least make an initial attempt to contact every conlanger we feature, though so far this is the only case where someone was unhappy with their language being featured. Also, I encourage anyone who is unhappy with our review to contact us. I do read all of the emails that come to conlangery@gmail.com, and comments from conlangers featured on previous shows are always welcome, and I think in every previous case that feedback was featured on the show (in fact, I may talk about this discussion on the show as well).

As far as people who are deciding to change their behavior, that is fine. You have the right to control when and in what form your work gets out into the public. I do hope that this incident will not create a chilling effect on discussion of conlangs. After all, we are not likely to feature a conlang based on the piecemeal discussions found on this board. I believe the only time we have used a board discussion was Baranxe'i, where the creator basically wrote his grammar in a forum thread.

Please understand that it is never our intention to offend or insult. We only shine a spotlight on certain things we think are cool.

[Risla]

I could set a real policy to at least make an initial attempt to contact every conlanger we feature

Please do this. It's not like I'm at all difficult to get ahold of, so clearly no effort was made there.

though so far this is the only case where someone was unhappy with their language being featured. Also, I encourage anyone who is unhappy with our review to contact us.

Yeah, and how many people have absolutely no idea that their language has been featured? Like I said, I had absolutely no idea that mine had been featured, and that was in October. And I'm contacting you now; you could hardly expect me to contact you about it when I had no idea.

[Ollock]

though so far this is the only case where someone was unhappy with their language being featured. Also, I encourage anyone who is unhappy with our review to contact us.

Yeah, and how many people have absolutely no idea that their language has been featured? Like I said, I had absolutely no idea that mine had been featured, and that was in October. And I'm contacting you now; you could hardly expect me to contact you about it when I had no idea.

Honestly, I thought you were a listener. You may recall you sent in a greeting in South Eresian before you were featured. That's the reason I was interested in your language in the first place.

[Jipí]

once burned, twice shy...

If it was for that, you shouldn't use email at all. Or phones. Or any other means of telecommunication. Because there might be a remote possibility that you can't reach the person you wish to talk to. >:|

[Risla]

though so far this is the only case where someone was unhappy with their language being featured. Also, I encourage anyone who is unhappy with our review to contact us.

Yeah, and how many people have absolutely no idea that their language has been featured? Like I said, I had absolutely no idea that mine had been featured, and that was in October. And I'm contacting you now; you could hardly expect me to contact you about it when I had no idea.

Honestly, I thought you were a listener. You may recall you sent in a greeting in South Eresian before you were featured. That's the reason I was interested in your language in the first place.

I have some sensory issues which make it difficult for me to listen to podcasts on any sort of regular basis.

[Whimemsz]

All these replies of yours, Ollock, are written in the language I would expect of a form letter response from a giant corporation whom I had sent in a complaint to. It sounds like you're in damage control mode to protect your product, which is saddening.

The "policy" I mentioned before is really just a habit.

A bad habit borne of being lazy. Please change it.

I could set a real policy to at least make an initial attempt to contact every conlanger we feature, though so far this is the only case where someone was unhappy with their language being featured.

How many people whose languages were featured still don't know about it? Risla didn't know about it until now, and hers was featured in October. A better question is, out of the featured-lang-creators who have contacted you after the fact, how many have been unhappy? (I could very well be entirely wrong, maybe most people have known about it?)

Also, I encourage anyone who is unhappy with our review to contact us. I do read all of the emails that come to conlangery@gmail.com, and comments from conlangers featured on previous shows are always welcome, and I think in every previous case that feedback was featured on the show (in fact, I may talk about this discussion on the show as well).

Maybe I'm being uncharitable (well, okay, I totally am, but whatever), but to me this says, "please email me if you have a complaint, don't make it public, so I can address it on my own terms." If you feature stuff in your arena without the creator's consent/knowledge, be prepared to answer to them on their arena.

As far as people who are deciding to change their behavior, that is fine. You have the right to control when and in what form your work gets out into the public. I do hope that this incident will not create a chilling effect on discussion of conlangs.

You know, people shouldn't need to put a notice on every piece of their work that says, "by the way, please contact me before you feature this on some other site or discussion". It's common courtesy.

EDIT: I mean...why would you not want to say, have the creator on to discuss the language with you? Wouldn't that make sense? They could also make sure your facts/interpretation of the data, external history, and so on, is correct. Even if not, they can give you supplementary info/corrections like that by email or whatever before the podcast.

[Rodlox]

once burned, twice shy...

If it was for that, you shouldn't use email at all. Or phones. Or any other means of telecommunication. Because there might be a remote possibility that you can't reach the person you wish to talk to. >:|

it goes further than that -- your logic means that nobody should post anything online without a foolproof means of being contacted. otherwise there's no grounds for being upset that said person wasn't contacted for permission.

though so far this is the only case where someone was unhappy with their language being featured. Also, I encourage anyone who is unhappy with our review to contact us.

Yeah, and how many people have absolutely no idea that their language has been featured? Like I said, I had absolutely no idea that mine had been featured, and that was in October. And I'm contacting you now; you could hardly expect me to contact you about it when I had no idea.

Honestly, I thought you were a listener. You may recall you sent in a greeting in South Eresian before you were featured. That's the reason I was interested in your language in the first place.

I have some sensory issues which make it difficult for me to listen to podcasts on any sort of regular basis.

I'm confused - then why are you upset, if you can't listen to them discuss it anyway?

[Whimemsz]

Dear Rodlox,
Fuck you.
Learn to logic.
Sincerely, Whimemsz

[Rodlox]

As far as people who are deciding to change their behavior, that is fine. You have the right to control when and in what form your work gets out into the public. I do hope that this incident will not create a chilling effect on discussion of conlangs.

You know, people shouldn't need to put a notice on every piece of their work that says, "by the way, please contact me before you feature this on some other site or discussion". It's common courtesy.

and yet if they don't put contact info on the page, how is anyone supposed to contact them - be it to ask questions about the conlang, or an invite to conlangery?

[Drydic]

though so far this is the only case where someone was unhappy with their language being featured. Also, I encourage anyone who is unhappy with our review to contact us.

Yeah, and how many people have absolutely no idea that their language has been featured? Like I said, I had absolutely no idea that mine had been featured, and that was in October. And I'm contacting you now; you could hardly expect me to contact you about it when I had no idea.

Honestly, I thought you were a listener. You may recall you sent in a greeting in South Eresian before you were featured. That's the reason I was interested in your language in the first place.

I have some sensory issues which make it difficult for me to listen to podcasts on any sort of regular basis.

I'm confused - then why are you upset, if you can't listen to them discuss it anyway?

I've bolded the relevant portion for you. Risla's perfectly capable of listening to a podcast. Also, they got several things about her language wrong. Wouldn't you be a bit upset if someone misinterpreted your work and then gave a possibly erroneous opinion of it?

[Whimemsz]

Shit, the last letter was marked "Return to Sender"? Let's try again.

Dear Rodlox,
Fuck you.
Learn to logic.
Sincerely, Whimemsz

[Rodlox]

Wouldn't you be a bit upset if someone misinterpreted your work and then gave a possibly erroneous opinion of it?

I'd be flattered that someone thought it complete enough to be discussed, and it would give me pointers on what to address next. (be it clarifying what was misinterpreted, and the suggestions)

Dear Rodlox,
Fuck you.
Learn to logic.
Sincerely, Whimemsz

To Whimenmsz,
You're not my type.
Grasp causality.
By, Rodlox.
ps: careful, you might create a TC there.

(where did it "return to sender"?)

[Mashmakhan]

I'm confused - then why are you upset, if you can't listen to them discuss it anyway?

As far as people who are deciding to change their behavior, that is fine. You have the right to control when and in what form your work gets out into the public. I do hope that this incident will not create a chilling effect on discussion of conlangs.

You know, people shouldn't need to put a notice on every piece of their work that says, "by the way, please contact me before you feature this on some other site or discussion". It's common courtesy.

and yet if they don't put contact info on the page, how is anyone supposed to contact them - be it to ask questions about the conlang, or an invite to conlangery?

I will see if I can reiterate what Whimemsz is trying to get to here. Conlang and conlanger are two parts of the same thing. They go hand in hand. If you don't have someone's permission to discuss their conlang then you don't discuss it. Period. It doesn't matter whether or not you think they know you are using the conlang, or whether or not you think they will consent later on. If the permission isn't there then the conlang shouldn't be there either. When you do neglect to ask for permission to discuss a conlang, it is as though you care more about program material than about the conlanger. This is most likely what Whimemsz and Risla are reacting to. Technically, what Ollock just did with South Eresian could be called stealing. Or exploitation. You remember the issues the rest of the board had with Serali a few years back, right?

[Rodlox]

I'm confused - then why are you upset, if you can't listen to them discuss it anyway?

As far as people who are deciding to change their behavior, that is fine. You have the right to control when and in what form your work gets out into the public. I do hope that this incident will not create a chilling effect on discussion of conlangs.

You know, people shouldn't need to put a notice on every piece of their work that says, "by the way, please contact me before you feature this on some other site or discussion". It's common courtesy.

and yet if they don't put contact info on the page, how is anyone supposed to contact them - be it to ask questions about the conlang, or an invite to conlangery?

I will see if I can reiterate what Whimemsz is trying to get to here. Conlang and conlanger are two parts of the same thing. They go hand in hand. If you don't have someone's permission to discuss their conlang then you don't discuss it.

the argument being used there, however, is a bit odd, though.

unless the South Eresian material was in a passing mention (ie, "while we're talking about morphosyntactic alignment of politness noun classes, South Eresian does the coolest thing with its politeness noun classes in syntax..."), then it's mentioned in print on the Conlangery website, so it doesn't matter what his hearing is like - he wouldn't need to hear the podcast to know South Eresian was on there.

Period. It doesn't matter whether or not you think they know you are using the conlang, or whether or not you think they will consent later on. If the permission isn't there then the conlang shouldn't be there either. When you do neglect to ask for permission to discuss a conlang,

point taken; but what about when permission is asked, and no reply is given?

(or, when a natlang is featured instead of a conlang, should the owners be asked permission?)

This is most likely what Whimemsz and Risla are reacting to. Technically, what Ollock just did with South Eresian could be called stealing. Or exploitation. You remember the issues the rest of the board had with Serali a few years back, right?

most of the time when I came by, the issue was the ***************** boingies. the boingies overwhelmed any other arguments my brain might have seen.

[Boşkoventi]

Look, it's really simple. People are mainly talking about Ollock et al. making an effort to contact the creators of conlangs. If someone puts their conlang online, but has no contact information with it, then frankly, that's their problem. And it really doesn't take much time or effort to see if the conlang's creator has put up any contact info.

There are, I think, two main reasons to try to make contact:

1) To make sure your information is accurate and up-to-date

2) Common courtesy: "Oh, by the way, we're featuring your conlang. Thought you'd like to know."

Yes, I'd be flattered if someone wanted to discuss one of my conlangs, but I'd want to know about it in advance rather than being caught off guard, and then hearing a lot of incorrect statements about my conlang. It may not be stealing or exploitation, but it is misinformation, and people tend to be sensitive about their creations, artistic or otherwise. And if you're not sure why someone would be sensitive about their conlang being discussed, read point 1) again.

There's also the picky little matter of getting permission. Material posted on a blog isn't really "published" in the same way as a book: there's no editing process, no advertizing, etc. And while the web is technically public, in practice much of it is really semi-public, i.e. even if you post something on your blog, you probably don't expect a whole lot of people to see it. IRL, you might talk about your conlang with a few friends, but you wouldn't expect them to turn around and tell all their friends about it (i.e. publicizing it) without asking you first.



tl;dr: Common courtesy

[Dewrad]

tl;dr: Common courtesy

Gods, 20-odd posts and this is the first time someone's brought this up?

[Drydic]

the argument being used there, however, is a bit odd, though.

unless the South Eresian material was in a passing mention (ie, "while we're talking about morphosyntactic alignment of politness noun classes, South Eresian does the coolest thing with its politeness noun classes in syntax..."), then it's mentioned in print on the Conlangery website, so it doesn't matter what his hearing is like - he wouldn't need to hear the podcast to know South Eresian was on there.

You're assuming that she reads the Conlangery website. Which, if she isn't listening to the podcasts (for whatever reason), is a really bad assumption. Are we supposed to randomly check hundreds of websites to see if our material is being reviewed on them? That's what you're saying.

Period. It doesn't matter whether or not you think they know you are using the conlang, or whether or not you think they will consent later on. If the permission isn't there then the conlang shouldn't be there either. When you do neglect to ask for permission to discuss a conlang,

point taken; but what about when permission is asked, and no reply is given?

Well they'd have to decide whether to feature that conlang in that circumstance.

(or, when a natlang is featured instead of a conlang, should the owners be asked permission?)

I realize you're trying to make a point here, but you failed miserably.

This is most likely what Whimemsz and Risla are reacting to. Technically, what Ollock just did with South Eresian could be called stealing. Or exploitation. You remember the issues the rest of the board had with Serali a few years back, right?

most of the time when I came by, the issue was the ***************** boingies. the boingies overwhelmed any other arguments my brain might have seen.

You must not have been around for the beginning then. Serali stole conscripts, reposted them as her own, and kept doing it even after being caught red-handed several times. Eventually she did stop and that's when the boingies became the (current) issue with her.

[Whimemsz]

This is most likely what Whimemsz and Risla are reacting to. Technically, what Ollock just did with South Eresian could be called stealing. Or exploitation. You remember the issues the rest of the board had with Serali a few years back, right?

most of the time when I came by, the issue was the ***************** boingies. the boingies overwhelmed any other arguments my brain might have seen.

You must not have been around for the beginning then. Serali stole conscripts, reposted them as her own, and kept doing it even after being caught red-handed several times. Eventually she did stop and that's when the boingies became the (current) issue with her.

That's not really a fair comparison though, since she claimed to have invented them herself; Ollock et al haven't made any such claims, they just haven't told people their work is being featured etc. etc.

Also, Dewrad, I also mentioned common courtesy in this post, give me some credit >:|

[Ollock]

All these replies of yours, Ollock, are written in the language I would expect of a form letter response from a giant corporation whom I had sent in a complaint to. It sounds like you're in damage control mode to protect your product, which is saddening.

It surprised me as well. I'm just trying to communicate some relevant information as succinctly as possible. In some cases, that tone makes sense.

How many people whose languages were featured still don't know about it? Risla didn't know about it until now, and hers was featured in October. A better question is, out of the featured-lang-creators who have contacted you after the fact, how many have been unhappy? (I could very well be entirely wrong, maybe most people have known about it?)

Not many, I'm sure. The dead one certainly doesn't, and quite a few others I'm sure are not in the community. However, there have been conlangers who have contacted me after the fact before, and generally the responses have been positive. A few actually suggested their own conlangs to me after I had already recorded an episode featuring it, which was somewhat embarassing.

Also, I encourage anyone who is unhappy with our review to contact us. I do read all of the emails that come to conlangery@gmail.com, and comments from conlangers featured on previous shows are always welcome, and I think in every previous case that feedback was featured on the show (in fact, I may talk about this discussion on the show as well).

Maybe I'm being uncharitable (well, okay, I totally am, but whatever), but to me this says, "please email me if you have a complaint, don't make it public, so I can address it on my own terms." If you feature stuff in your arena without the creator's consent/knowledge, be prepared to answer to them on their arena.

It's more like "please send your most important feedback to this channel, because it's the communication channel I look at first when deciding what to put in the Feedback segment of the show". Yes, that is addressing it "on my own terms", though all email that we feature on the show are copy-pasted verbatim into the shownotes, so they would become public by default.

As far as people who are deciding to change their behavior, that is fine. You have the right to control when and in what form your work gets out into the public. I do hope that this incident will not create a chilling effect on discussion of conlangs.

You know, people shouldn't need to put a notice on every piece of their work that says, "by the way, please contact me before you feature this on some other site or discussion". It's common courtesy.

I never suggested that they should. I just felt uncomfortable with the idea that people would talk about there conlangs on here less for fear of it being publicized in an "incomplete" state.

EDIT: I mean...why would you not want to say, have the creator on to discuss the language with you? Wouldn't that make sense? They could also make sure your facts/interpretation of the data, external history, and so on, is correct. Even if not, they can give you supplementary info/corrections like that by email or whatever before the podcast.

Of course we would. Understand that we make the decision on which conlang to feature literally the week before we record the episode. We are disorganized, and that is a problem. I will talk about this at the next recording session and how we can fix it.

I will see if I can reiterate what Whimemsz is trying to get to here. Conlang and conlanger are two parts of the same thing. They go hand in hand. If you don't have someone's permission to discuss their conlang then you don't discuss it. Period. It doesn't matter whether or not you think they know you are using the conlang, or whether or not you think they will consent later on. If the permission isn't there then the conlang shouldn't be there either. When you do neglect to ask for permission to discuss a conlang, it is as though you care more about program material than about the conlanger. This is most likely what Whimemsz and Risla are reacting to. Technically, what Ollock just did with South Eresian could be called stealing. Or exploitation. You remember the issues the rest of the board had with Serali a few years back, right?

I take serious issue with this statement. What the Featured Conlang segment does is analogous to a book or movie review. Book reviewers do not need the author's permission to write a review. They may contact authors (for their thoughts, review copies, etc), but they are not required to. Legally, this is covered under the fair use doctrine. If we needed author permission, I wouldn't have been able to feature Quenya, since JRR Tolkien is dead. I am not committing any copyright violations. I am also not invading anyone's privacy, inasmuch as anything that is out on the open Internet is public by default. I am just trying to share something cool.

Look, it's really simple. People are mainly talking about Ollock et al. making an effort to contact the creators of conlangs. If someone puts their conlang online, but has no contact information with it, then frankly, that's their problem. And it really doesn't take much time or effort to see if the conlang's creator has put up any contact info.

There are, I think, two main reasons to try to make contact:

1) To make sure your information is accurate and up-to-date

2) Common courtesy: "Oh, by the way, we're featuring your conlang. Thought you'd like to know."

Yes, I'd be flattered if someone wanted to discuss one of my conlangs, but I'd want to know about it in advance rather than being caught off guard, and then hearing a lot of incorrect statements about my conlang. It may not be stealing or exploitation, but it is misinformation, and people tend to be sensitive about their creations, artistic or otherwise. And if you're not sure why someone would be sensitive about their conlang being discussed, read point 1) again.

There's also the picky little matter of getting permission. Material posted on a blog isn't really "published" in the same way as a book: there's no editing process, no advertizing, etc. And while the web is technically public, in practice much of it is really semi-public, i.e. even if you post something on your blog, you probably don't expect a whole lot of people to see it. IRL, you might talk about your conlang with a few friends, but you wouldn't expect them to turn around and tell all their friends about it (i.e. publicizing it) without asking you first.

tl;dr: Common courtesy

Thank you, Boşkoventi, for your reasoned and understanding response. I really do agree with many of the points raised by you and Whimemsz. I still would consider a blog to be published work, personal as it may be, but I understand now that the South Eresian blog may not have been the best information source and that contacting Risla could have helped me out. We did contact a few conlangers about their work early on, but never developed a good habit of doing so. I will not put a requirement on myself to get permission, but the common courtesy "Hey, we want to talk about your stuff, just thought you ought to know" is a good idea. And there may be cases where I will agree with creators who are uncomfortable with having their work presented and change the lineup.

I also want to point out, for sake of perspective, that the Conlangery Podcast is not hugely popular. Last week we had 297 total downloads according to Podtrac. And that was a particularly busy week. Ultimately, the audience you get there is about the same as the audience you get for a forum post here, I imagine. Those numbers may increase in time, and I hope they do. If it does get to be a really popular podcast with tens of thousands of downloads (probably a pipedream, and not really my goal), I do hope that we can resolve these issues before that happens.

[Rodlox]

the argument being used there, however, is a bit odd, though.
unless the South Eresian material was in a passing mention (ie, "while we're talking about morphosyntactic alignment of politness noun classes, South Eresian does the coolest thing with its politeness noun classes in syntax..."), then it's mentioned in print on the Conlangery website, so it doesn't matter what his hearing is like - he wouldn't need to hear the podcast to know South Eresian was on there.

You're assuming that she reads the Conlangery website. Which, if she isn't listening to the podcasts (for whatever reason), is a really bad assumption. Are we supposed to randomly check hundreds of websites to see if our material is being reviewed on them? That's what you're saying.

that would be what I was saying IF we needed to do all that; but we don't.

in this forum and on Conlangery, everyone agrees that the conlanging community is very very small. so we aren't just talking about her not reading Conlangery (or the Conlangery post on that site that contains every conlang-related thread, or at the Conlangery thread in the ZBB) -- we're implying that she knows nobody who visists the Conlangery site (or the all-conlangs site or the ZBB (and knows nobody who knows anybody who visits them)

And did anyone say "wait, this isn't the latest version from the creator of South Eresian"? (either in the Conlangery reply thread at the site, or here in the ZBB, or elsewhere)


shouldn't we be just as upset that nobody noticed - 5 months of nobody noticing - as the fact which was eventually noticed itself?

(or, when a natlang is featured instead of a conlang, should the owners be asked permission?)

I realize you're trying to make a point here, but you failed miserably.

my original thought was "who asked Okrand for permission to discuss his paper on Mutsun?"...and I thought "no, I don't remember if the tribe is still around, and it might make a stronger point if I speak of the natlang's owners, instead of the natlang's documenter."

most of the time when I came by, the issue was the ***************** boingies. the boingies overwhelmed any other arguments my brain might have seen.

You must not have been around for the beginning then. Serali stole conscripts, reposted them as her own, and kept doing it even after being caught red-handed several times. Eventually she did stop and that's when the boingies became the (current) issue with her.[/quote]

makes me glad I wasn't around at the beginning.