Conlangery Podcast (Latest Ep: #94: Face and Politeness)

[Mashmakhan]

Wouldn't you be a bit upset if someone misinterpreted your work and then gave a possibly erroneous opinion of it?

I'd be flattered that someone thought it complete enough to be discussed, and it would give me pointers on what to address next. (be it clarifying what was misinterpreted, and the suggestions)

Fixed.

But we wouldn't have known that if we had not asked you. Likewise, Ollock had no idea how Risla felt about his using the conlang because he never bothered to ask. Turns out he was wrong, but the damage was done because because he acted without knowing. Not because he was wrong.

This is most likely what Whimemsz and Risla are reacting to. Technically, what Ollock just did with South Eresian could be called stealing. Or exploitation. You remember the issues the rest of the board had with Serali a few years back, right?

most of the time when I came by, the issue was the ***************** boingies. the boingies overwhelmed any other arguments my brain might have seen.

You must not have been around for the beginning then. Serali stole conscripts, reposted them as her own, and kept doing it even after being caught red-handed several times. Eventually she did stop and that's when the boingies became the (current) issue with her.

That's not really a fair comparison though, since she claimed to have invented them herself; Ollock et al haven't made any such claims, they just haven't told people their work is being featured etc. etc.

Plagiarism and exploitation are not really the same thing, I agree with that. However, they both involve giving the same excuse: "The owner wasn't around and I needed some material..." The problem here is that both excuses are one-sided. They put the plagiarizer/exploiter before the person being plagiarized or exploited. That is what people primarily take issue with. That, and the possibility of the person using the material getting it wrong and making a fool of themselves OR not presenting the material the way it was supposed to have been presented. As was what happened here with South Eresian.

I will see if I can reiterate what Whimemsz is trying to get to here. Conlang and conlanger are two parts of the same thing. They go hand in hand. If you don't have someone's permission to discuss their conlang then you don't discuss it. Period. It doesn't matter whether or not you think they know you are using the conlang, or whether or not you think they will consent later on. If the permission isn't there then the conlang shouldn't be there either. When you do neglect to ask for permission to discuss a conlang, it is as though you care more about program material than about the conlanger. This is most likely what Whimemsz and Risla are reacting to. Technically, what Ollock just did with South Eresian could be called stealing. Or exploitation. You remember the issues the rest of the board had with Serali a few years back, right?

I take serious issue with this statement. What the Featured Conlang segment does is analogous to a book or movie review. Book reviewers do not need the author's permission to write a review. They may contact authors (for their thoughts, review copies, etc), but they are not required to. Legally, this is covered under the fair use doctrine. If we needed author permission, I wouldn't have been able to feature Quenya, since JRR Tolkien is dead. I am not committing any copyright violations. I am also not invading anyone's privacy, inasmuch as anything that is out on the open Internet is public by default. I am just trying to share something cool.

The difference between the cases you mentioned and the case with Risla's conlang is that South Eresian is not yet an official work. Unless you are a conlanger who has heard or read about Risla's association with South Eresian, you wouldn't know whether she created it or not. I realize you mentioned her name as the creator of South Eresian in the podcast, but still...something like that can catch you offguard. Particularly due to the fact that it would be easy to plagiarize the conlang, had you wanted to. I think this is partly what other people here mean by Common Courtesy. We like to be aware that our stuff is being used and when we only recenly discover that it has been used we get caught offguard. I can't say the same for you or Rodlox but not everyone likes that feeling.

[Drydic]

You must not have been around for the beginning then. Serali stole conscripts, reposted them as her own, and kept doing it even after being caught red-handed several times. Eventually she did stop and that's when the boingies became the (current) issue with her.

That's not really a fair comparison though, since she claimed to have invented them herself; Ollock et al haven't made any such claims, they just haven't told people their work is being featured etc. etc.

Oh man I wasn't trying in any way to equate this issue with Serali's bullshit; I was just explaining it to Rodlox, since he either wasn't here for or didn't notice the full fireworks. If that came across that way then Ollock, I apologize to you unreservedly. This is on such a different level of Issue (if you catch my drift)...

I take serious issue with this statement. What the Featured Conlang segment does is analogous to a book or movie review. Book reviewers do not need the author's permission to write a review. They may contact authors (for their thoughts, review copies, etc), but they are not required to. Legally, this is covered under the fair use doctrine. If we needed author permission, I wouldn't have been able to feature Quenya, since JRR Tolkien is dead. I am not committing any copyright violations. I am also not invading anyone's privacy, inasmuch as anything that is out on the open Internet is public by default. I am just trying to share something cool.

This is common, Ollock. Mashmakhan is one of those people who is Perpetually Wrong. He's stated in the past that the Moon affects the water within our bodies (I don't want to remember what he said it did and frankly, I don't want to get any dumber), just as an example.


In all, I do want this podcast to succeed. This issue is more like growing pains than an actual problem, on the whole. Just wanted to make that clear, as I think I was pretty pissy when I started/while I was commenting on this.

[Rodlox]

Drydic Guy - thanks for explaining; this explains what seemed like cryptic references. much appreciated.

ps: we all get pissy at times. the important part is we get over it/past that.

Wouldn't you be a bit upset if someone misinterpreted your work and then gave a possibly erroneous opinion of it?

I'd be flattered that someone thought it complete enough to be discussed, and it would give me pointers on what to address next. (be it clarifying what was misinterpreted, and the suggestions)

Fixed.

But we wouldn't have known that if we had not asked you.

I'm confused...your argument seems to now be:
"If we had not asked you (?), we would not have known {that you would be flattered {if someone thought your conlang was complete enough {to be discussed {without my authorization}"

so what would you not have known?

That is what people primarily take issue with. That, and the possibility of the person using the material getting it wrong and making a fool of themselves OR not presenting the material the way it was supposed to have been presented.

the presentation style seems to be more "ooh, this caught my eye" than "the layout dictates we talk about it in this order". remember the discussions about Mutsun and Kamakawi?, jumping all over the table of contents.

I take serious issue with this statement. What the Featured Conlang segment does is analogous to a book or movie review. Book reviewers do not need the author's permission to write a review. They may contact authors (for their thoughts, review copies, etc), but they are not required to. Legally, this is covered under the fair use doctrine. If we needed author permission, I wouldn't have been able to feature Quenya, since JRR Tolkien is dead. I am not committing any copyright violations. I am also not invading anyone's privacy, inasmuch as anything that is out on the open Internet is public by default. I am just trying to share something cool.

The difference between the cases you mentioned and the case with Risla's conlang is that South Eresian is not yet an official work.

I can understand your insistance that Conlangery only take looks at conlangs with the creators' permission...but now they need to be official works? (question centers on my uncertainty of if you mean "official work"="published" ?)

Unless you are a conlanger who has heard or read about Risla's association with South Eresian, you wouldn't know whether she created it or not. I realize you mentioned her name as the creator of South Eresian in the podcast, but still...something like that can catch you offguard. Particularly due to the fact that it would be easy to plagiarize the conlang, had you wanted to.

wouldn't it be harder to do that after Conlangery featured it? (given how small the conlanging community is). or is there a special fear of conlangers who only plagerize things that were in podcasts?

I think this is partly what other people here mean by Common Courtesy. We like to be aware that our stuff is being used and when we only recenly discover that it has been used we get caught offguard. I can't say the same for you or Rodlox but not everyone likes that feeling.

I don't like the feeling either. but like I put on some of my fanfics: "if you'd like to use one of my OCs, go ahead - just let me know where I can read the story"...I have to repeat my earlier question: isn't it also rude to let 5+ months pass before anyone tells Risla that South Eresian was on Conlangery?

{I mean, heck, a lot less time would go by before - to use your example earlier in this post - someone posts a reply to my conlang's thead with "why aren't you doing any of the things Conlangery suggested?" or "not sure that's what they meant"...and I'm pretty sure more people like Risla than like me, which is what it is}

[Mashmakhan]

Wouldn't you be a bit upset if someone misinterpreted your work and then gave a possibly erroneous opinion of it?

I'd be flattered that someone thought it complete enough to be discussed, and it would give me pointers on what to address next. (be it clarifying what was misinterpreted, and the suggestions)

Fixed.

But we wouldn't have known that if we had not asked you.

I'm confused...your argument seems to now be:
"If we had not asked you (?), we would not have known {that you would be flattered {if someone thought your conlang was complete enough {to be discussed {without my authorization}"

so what would you not have known?

That you would have been flattered. I don't really want to argue about any of this but the point is that we wouldn't know. So the person in question's reaction could be anything. People here seem to be a hell of a lot more accepting of unauthorized use of their material than people elsewhere so maybe I am the only one who sees this as a problem. If so, my apologies for the overreaction.

I take serious issue with this statement. What the Featured Conlang segment does is analogous to a book or movie review. Book reviewers do not need the author's permission to write a review. They may contact authors (for their thoughts, review copies, etc), but they are not required to. Legally, this is covered under the fair use doctrine. If we needed author permission, I wouldn't have been able to feature Quenya, since JRR Tolkien is dead. I am not committing any copyright violations. I am also not invading anyone's privacy, inasmuch as anything that is out on the open Internet is public by default. I am just trying to share something cool.

The difference between the cases you mentioned and the case with Risla's conlang is that South Eresian is not yet an official work.

I can understand your insistance that Conlangery only take looks at conlangs with the creators' permission...but now they need to be official works? (question centers on my uncertainty of if you mean "official work"="published" ?)

Official work = published because then, whenever people look at the work, they either know beforehand who made it or they soon find out. If it were a book, the author's name would be on the cover somewhere. With works that aren't fully recognized, you would need to be into a certain hobby, belong to a certain club, know certain people, etc. in order to know that they made the work in question. This isn't really the issue here because Ollock did apparently say that South Eresian was created by Risla. I am just explaining why such an instance might catch someone offguard in other cases where attribution was not mentioned.

Unless you are a conlanger who has heard or read about Risla's association with South Eresian, you wouldn't know whether she created it or not. I realize you mentioned her name as the creator of South Eresian in the podcast, but still...something like that can catch you offguard. Particularly due to the fact that it would be easy to plagiarize the conlang, had you wanted to.

wouldn't it be harder to do that after Conlangery featured it?

Not if the name of the conlang's creator wasn't mentioned. Like I said, this isn't an issue here. I was explaining why it could be an issue and henceforth why it might make some people feel edgy.

I think this is partly what other people here mean by Common Courtesy. We like to be aware that our stuff is being used and when we only recenly discover that it has been used we get caught offguard. I can't say the same for you or Rodlox but not everyone likes that feeling.

I don't like the feeling either. but like I put on some of my fanfics: "if you'd like to use one of my OCs, go ahead - just let me know where I can read the story"

Emphasis underlined. And what if they don't let you know? They have the ability and freedom to do that. I could agree that publicized works should - as a responsibility of their creator - be at the mercy of those who see/hear/read it, but then that is precisely why I don't publicize most if not any of my creative works. I don't like the possibilities of what could happen to it. Sufficed to say, I have been a victim of plagiarism several times before.

...I have to repeat my earlier question: isn't it also rude to let 5+ months pass before anyone tells Risla that South Eresian was on Conlangery?

{I mean, heck, a lot less time would go by before - to use your example earlier in this post - someone posts a reply to my conlang's thead with "why aren't you doing any of the things Conlangery suggested?" or "not sure that's what they meant"...and I'm pretty sure more people like Risla than like me, which is what it is}

I wasn't really advocating the idea that we let any time pass before we tell them we used their work. So, on that note, I agree.

[Ollock]

Just a note: I wanted to mention I just listened to the episode in question. Again, we made a mistake in failing to contact Risla, but I have a feeling that much of the disjointedness of the conversation was just the fact that we were all still very bad at this podcasting thing. Early on I had a serious problem with hesitation and general choppy conversational style. I have improved on this, and learned to better hide those problems with editing to boot. This and none of us had bothered to do any reading beforehand: another thing that we are getting better at, though it can still be an issue.

[finlay]

Have you got a list of all the languages that have been featured?

[Mashmakhan]

Ollock, I apologise for making such a big deal out of this whole thing. My response was primarily aimed at Rodlox but - like Drydic Guy (though significantly more so) - I overreacted. I do want this thing to continue. I just think you made a mistake by not asking Risla before discussing her conlang. Looking back at my posts yesterday, however, I really was an idiot. I would like to take a lot of it back but it won't help me much by editing everything out.

Good luck with the podcast.

[Boşkoventi]

Have you got a list of all the languages that have been featured?

The Conlangery website has an entry for each podcast, including the Featured Conlang.

[finlay]

Have you got a list of all the languages that have been featured?

The Conlangery website has an entry for each podcast, including the Featured Conlang.

So... No?

Yes, the information is there, but not in the format i'm asking about.

[Ollock]

Have you got a list of all the languages that have been featured?

The Conlangery website has an entry for each podcast, including the Featured Conlang.

So... No?

Yes, the information is there, but not in the format i'm asking about.

No, there isn't a list. You just have to dig through the archives.

[finlay]

Fair enough. I'd just be interested to see it, is all. I haven't submitted my own conlangs, and I don't reckon they're in a presentable state!

By the way, did you get my email?

[Ollock]

Yes, I did. Sorry, I have been slow about that. Been consumed by other things recently. I'll get to that.

[Ollock]

Conlangery #39: Noun Incorporation

[Ollock]

Conlangery #40: Dialects and Kunstsprachen

[Rodlox]

re-listening to Conlangery#23:Alien Languages...

Back when I was in the readership, I was a witness to an authorized formation of an Atevi/English Dictionary, based (and extrapolated from) the books by CJ Cherryh. (the person leading the effort, previously made an English/Kiffish and English/Hani dictionaries)

and the 10x10-speaking aliens were the t'ca and the chi. just so you know.

ps: the nasal-less aliens...did they have much in the way of plosives or fricatives?

[Ollock]

ps: the nasal-less aliens...did they have much in the way of plosives or fricatives?

You mean my Xala? They do. Yeltax has a fairly small consonant inventory, so it probably doesn't reflect the extent of their capabilities, but here it is:

/t c k ʔ/
/d ɟ ɡ/
/s ç x/
/d͜ ʒ/
/l j ʀ/

I'm not sure now why I went with a full palatal series. I know that I initially wanted /ç/ because it sounded like a hissing sound to me, but I think in other places may have felt that I needed to compensate for lack of bilabials (which the Xala cannot produce because they have beaks). I suppose that the Xala beak, being a little longer than a human mouth, might have more distinct values for /c k/, but that's not really something I can test, given that only recently have researchers been able to construct a mechanical version of a human vocal tract.

[Ollock]

Conlangery #41: Discourse Particles

Also I need more translations of "Welcome to Conlangery, the podcast about constructed languages and the people who create them." for the top of the show. Send recordings to conlangery@gmail.com

[clawgrip]

I posted one in the other thread. Don't know if you want to use it since it's a bit weird.

[Bristel]

I'm sad that Bianca is no longer a host of the show.

[Solarius]

I'm sad that Bianca is no longer a host of the show.

Me too.

[Ollock]

I'm sad that Bianca is no longer a host of the show.

Me too.

Hopefully you guys will learn to love the new host. Listen next week for that.
_____

Also, speaking of changes, I am planning on changing the Conlangery logo. My idea is for people to translate "Conlangery" into their languages, and especially into native scripts. Interpretive translations are encouraged, though I will still consider phonetic transcriptions. If you use a script of your own creation, or characters that are for another reason are not available with most Unicode fonts, please send a black and white image with your submission. Send all submissions to conlangery@gmail.com (phonetic transcriptions and glosses are encouraged but not required).

[Jipí]

Hopefully you guys will learn to love the new host. Listen next week for that.

I'm curious. So far, Bianca's never said much, so it was unfortunately mostly you interviewing Will, I'm afraid. I hope you guys will get some more actual group discussion on.

Also, speaking of changes, I am planning on changing the Conlangery logo. My idea is for people to translate "Conlangery" into their languages, and especially into native scripts. Interpretive translations are encouraged, though I will still consider phonetic transcriptions. If you use a script of your own creation, or characters that are for another reason are not available with most Unicode fonts, please send a black and white image with your submission. Send all submissions to conlangery@gmail.com (phonetic transcriptions and glosses are encouraged but not required).

Here's a little something that took longer to make than I'd've expected. The high-res has been mailed to you.

[DELETED] (see viewtopic.php?p=955883#p955883)

Ayeri: Narānacan (literally na-rā-na-tya-n) /naˈraːnaʧan/ 'Conlangery', from narān 'language' + -ati 'AGTZ' + -an 'NMLZ'.

Unfortunately I didn't manage to thin one line of the lengthening subdiacritic. But I think it looks OK anyway. You can tell I dig this kinda look, as William correctly guessed in the episode featuring my conlang back in August :)

[finlay]

The Sentalian word I used is ypnyykèèsumacaxee (the followers of invented languages), but I don't have an invented script for it yet.

[Ollock]

The Sentalian word I used is ypnyykèèsumacaxee (the followers of invented languages), but I don't have an invented script for it yet.

No worries. I'll still look at Roman orthographies. I just want to encourage people to submit conscript samples, since this is for a visual medium. I'm imagining the English title in the center with a cloud of conlang translations surrounding it.

[Risla]

Here you go:



That says p'eloniryos in South Eresian, which is my translation of "conlangery" (literally it means "abstract quality of creating languages").