Why are there different registers?

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linguoboy
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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by linguoboy »

Skomakar'n wrote:Yes, yes. Everything that analogies can be made between is, in reality, also equal to the other. Indeed.
You know how you refute an analogy? By coming up with an effective counterargument.



I'll wait.
Nooj wrote:
Astraios wrote:You're trying to dodge the issue.
How so?
Looking back over the discussion, it appears that your and Nooj's arguments keep circling back to "I don't feel a need for more than one linguistic register so I don't see why anybody does." Do you not see any potential pitfalls with this line of reasoning?

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by sirred »

Skomakar'n wrote:Fair enough, but if everyone spoke in the same register (neutral) or spoke the same dialect, then it wouldn't make any sense to speak of registers or dialects anyway.

I am perfectly aware that we don't.
And therein lies the problem. Can you speak to a judge in a neutral register? Yes. Can the bench respond in a neutral register? Sure. Will the judge get angry if you try it though? Perhaps. We could all speak in a neutral register and everything'd be great. But, as you emphasized, we simply don't. So, why not? We must find something socially useful about bothering with register that outweighs the strengths of a registerless egalitarian paradise.
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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by linguoboy »

sirred wrote:We could all speak in a neutral register and everything'd be great. But, as you emphasized, we simply don't. So, why not? We must find something socially useful about bothering with register that outweighs the strengths of a registerless egalitarian paradise.
As I mentioned before, I simply can't quite grok the mindset that sees linguistic variation as a bug to be engineered away as opposed to a feature to be exploited. I like having a variety of registers. I'm very pleased with my command of them and I enjoy varying them for rhetorical effect (humourous, condescending, inculpatory, etc.)

At the same time, I sympathise with those who struggle with them. I struggle with registers, too, in languages other than my mother tongue. Nothing is quite as frustrating as having a native speaker say you sound "quaint" or "uneducated" when it was never your intention to come off that way. Even so, I wouldn't wish them away because I still have hopes of one day achieving a semblance of the command of speech levels and styles that I have in English. I like that fairy tales aren't written in the exact same style as news reports or pop songs and that I can recognise this, even if I haven't yet reached the level where I can effectively imitate it.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by Salmoneus »

That's a good example. Fairy tales are written differently from news reports, in order to indicate the genre (and hence certain expectations and concessions). Without these register differences, there would be confusion and people would become upset when the text disobeyed the rules of the genre that the reader had first thought the text was in. What's more, it shows another important reason for diversity: fun. It's fun to master one's own language. So, on the one hand, having more registers makes the language harder (hence, more enjoyable); on the other, wanting to have fun in language is an aim the listener may not share, so instantly you have liberal and puritan registers. [How I might write on a forum where I feel comfortable and unthreatened and just posting for fun is different from how I would write to my boss about work - if I pissed about with parentheses and puns and archaic turns of phrase and irony, he'd be pissed off at me for wasting his time and not concentrating on what really mattered]. But of course, fun means freedom - the opportunities opened up by this play of language create freedom for self-expression and self-creation by the speaker.
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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by clawgrip »

No one who is even remotely socially successful can actually get by with the same register for every situation. It's an impossibility.

Consciously or unconsciously, we know that other people are judging us as they listen to us, and we tailor our words as best we can to get a desired reaction from them. If we want to show solidarity with friends, persuade, tell a difficult truth, relate an amusing story, apologize for a serious or minor mistake, get someone to go away without hurting their feelings, get someone to go away and actually want to hurt their feelings, ask a stranger for information, make a newcomer feel welcome or unwelcome, pick up a girl at a bar or at school, speak to a foreign delegate, address a room full of people, get a raise, tell someone to stop acting the fool and do their work, in a way that is firm enough to ensure they listen to you but not so forceful as to make them resentful, reassure a child, reassure your boss, etc. etc., we have to use different language. We can't use the same neutral register for all of these cases.

Sometimes these different social situations are entirely contradictory. Consider someone who speaks at a job interview just as they would with their friends, or who employs the idiomatic grammar and word use common to the local dialect. They will very likely be judged uneducated or disrespectful, or both. Yet if that same person uses doesn't and isn't among their friends and family back home, they run the risk of being judged in an equally negative light, unable to fit in. A pertinent quote: "She resented my more cultivated speech as an attempt to "show off," for I had tried to correct my accent and dialect. Her resentment expressed itself in a scornful silence."

It's true that English does not generally have any neat examples like "du is informal and Sie is formal," but that doesn't mean register doesn't exist in English. We just go about it in a different way.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by Skomakar'n »

linguoboy wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:Yes, yes. Everything that analogies can be made between is, in reality, also equal to the other. Indeed.
You know how you refute an analogy? By coming up with an effective counterargument.



I'll wait.
I'll wait too. I'm having breakfast.
sirred wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:Fair enough, but if everyone spoke in the same register (neutral) or spoke the same dialect, then it wouldn't make any sense to speak of registers or dialects anyway.

I am perfectly aware that we don't.
And therein lies the problem. Can you speak to a judge in a neutral register? Yes. Can the bench respond in a neutral register? Sure. Will the judge get angry if you try it though? Perhaps. We could all speak in a neutral register and everything'd be great. But, as you emphasized, we simply don't. So, why not? We must find something socially useful about bothering with register that outweighs the strengths of a registerless egalitarian paradise.
Apparently, but what is it?

Just trying to stir up the discussion without necessarily being a troll. I just want to see what you guys think. These are not necessarily my own opinions.

I have to say though, that I definitely do not perceive styles of works (fairytales and news) as the same thing as being grammatically rude to somebody because you have a better job than they do. They're both variations of language but they're not equal in usage to me.
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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by clawgrip »

Skomakar'n wrote:Apparently, but what is it?
Is this the kind of thing you mean? Here is something I wrote up demonstrating through example the reasons why we carefully chose our words to meet the situation rather than using the exact same default words for every conceivable situation:

1. "It’d be cool if you could move up one."
- the use of conditional form with if makes the content of the request hypothetical rather than actual
- the request is rephrased into a statement of fact

Both of these techniques serve to obscure the speaker’s desire and expectation for the fulfilment of the proposition, and thus reduce the commitment on the part of the addressee to submit to it. Additionally, the deference shown by the speaker through these two techniques encourages reciprocal deference on the part of the addressee in submitting to the proposition.

- Use of the informal cool
- Use of the spoken, non-literary it’d

Using more informal language serves as an attempt to bridge the social gap between speaker and addressee and to build solidarity, with the expectation that the addressee is more likely to submit to the proposition of someone with whom they have a closer social relationship.

2. "Piss off."
- use of direct imperative without please
- use of the confrontational phrase piss off

The lack of deferential language and use of confrontational language demonstrates a wish for the addressee to recognize the speaker’s strong desire to avoid interaction, in the hopes that the addressee will choose to end an unpleasant situation rather than prolonging it. Also, the lack of additional explanation emphasizes the speaker’s urgency.

3. "Would it be OK if I handed my assignment in next uh, Monday?"
- use of conditional form with if makes the content of the request hypothetical rather than actual.

As in the first example, this obscures the speaker’s desire and expectation for the proposition to be fulfilled, and thus lowers the commitment on the part of the addressee to submit to it, and again, the deference shown by the speaker encourages reciprocal deference on the part of the addressee in submitting to the proposition.

- the embedded question avoids directly requesting the intended proposition
- use of hesitation marker uh before the most important word to show a lack of confidence or a fear of saying the word

Both of these techniques show the speaker’s recognition that the request is in some sense not appropriate or not likely to be fulfilled. By demonstrating an understanding of the low likelihood of fulfilment, it is implied that the speaker does not make the request frivolously, and subsequently implies that there must therefore be a good reason for making the request, encouraging the addressee to submit to the proposition.

Most of this stuff is both spoken and heard subconsciously.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by linguoboy »

Skomakar'n wrote:I have to say though, that I definitely do not perceive styles of works (fairytales and news) as the same thing as being grammatically rude to somebody because you have a better job than they do. They're both variations of language but they're not equal in usage to me.
That's nice to know. Not particularly relevant to the discussion, but nice to know anyway.

How do you act "grammatically rude" to someone anyway? And why do you frame rudeness as something performed by a person of greater social status to a person of lesser? Rudeness goes both ways, and talking too formally can be just as rude (paradoxically even more rude) as talking too casually.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by sirred »

Hm, is pretentiousness the same as rudeness? Maybe if you're purposely trying to talk over your audience or something.
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Re: Why are there different registers?

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sirred wrote:Hm, is pretentiousness the same as rudeness? Maybe if you're purposely trying to talk over your audience or something.
I'm not even talking about that. Think of someone you feel close to. How would you feel if the two of you were alone together and they spoke you in an elevated formal register?

"How is your wife?" is a faultlessly polite thing to say to someone in our culture. But to someone whose wife has been a close friend of yours for years? Then it becomes distancing, cold, and, yes, you could even say "rude". You could definitely call it "rude" if she's standing within earshot.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by sirred »

True true. Especially by the distance created by the use of the possessive as opposed to "How's Sarah?"
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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by Travis B. »

And then there's "How's the wife", which is an admixture of the two; less formal and more able to be used with people one knows well more than "How is your wife", but definitely rude if said wife is actually present in person.
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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by Skomakar'n »

If the wife is present in the room, why would you even direct the question towards the husband and not her?
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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by finlay »

Skomakar'n wrote:If the wife is present in the room, why would you even direct the question towards the husband and not her?
You are stating the obvious, so well done, but I think you fail to connect this with the fact that doing so would be incredibly rude. That's why nobody actually does it.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by Skomakar'n »

I'm just looking for a concrete answer. One obviously does not actually care about the wife's health if doing this, so why does one still ask the question? To intentionally mock her?
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I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688

Of an Ernst'ian one.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

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linguoboy wrote: Looking back over the discussion, it appears that your and Nooj's arguments keep circling back to "I don't feel a need for more than one linguistic register so I don't see why anybody does." Do you not see any potential pitfalls with this line of reasoning?
I don't think I've been saying that, but if I have, it wasn't my intention. I think sociolinguistics is fascinating and I want to know more about the sociolinguistic reasons for registers in languages.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by finlay »

Most sociolinguistic phenomena boil down to showing your membership of a group, right up to the high-level ones like the opposition between two distinct languages. Speaking in a different register is akin to speaking in a different dialect or accent, in the sense that you can use it to show your membership of a group, or show what you think about someone else or about their group.

You know, I read that the word 'otaku' comes from one of the formal 2p pronouns in Japanese, because the anime subculturists were using an overly formal register amongst themselves. I've seen this a bit with youth geek culture in English too; people calling each other "sir", for instance.

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Re: Why are there different registers?

Post by linguoboy »

Nooj wrote:
linguoboy wrote: Looking back over the discussion, it appears that your and Nooj's arguments keep circling back to "I don't feel a need for more than one linguistic register so I don't see why anybody does." Do you not see any potential pitfalls with this line of reasoning?
I don't think I've been saying that, but if I have, it wasn't my intention. I think sociolinguistics is fascinating and I want to know more about the sociolinguistic reasons for registers in languages.
What books have you read on the subject?

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