Bizarre Sound Changes
-
- Avisaru
- Posts: 704
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:41 am
- Location: NY, USA
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Greek apparently went from [y] to [f]~[v] in certain contexts. Fortition like this and that of [j w] above weirds me.
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Huh, I thought it was more widespread than that. I knew an Argentinean who had debuccalization of coda /s/.Serafín wrote:The colloquial Spanish of Caribbeans and some southern Spaniards, please don't generalize this to the rest of us.Jetboy wrote:Also, if anyone feels like cutting out steps, Latin -> colloquial Spanish has /s/ -> /e/ #_C.
Apparently Old Norse had "u-umlaut," which, near as I can tell, was basically rounding of front vowels when followed by back vowels. To quote Wikipedia:Soap wrote:Does anyone know if front rounded vowels have ever arisen from front unrounded vowels? e.g. i > y, rather than u > y.
Wikipedia wrote:Some /y/, /yː/, /ø/, /øː/, and all /ɔ/, /ɔː/ were obtained by u-umlaut from /i/, /iː/, /e/, /eː/, and /a/, /aː/ respectively. See Old Icelandic for information on /ɔː/.
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."
–Herm Albright
Even better than a proto-conlang, it's the *kondn̥ǵʰwéh₂s
–Herm Albright
Even better than a proto-conlang, it's the *kondn̥ǵʰwéh₂s
- Ser
- Smeric
- Posts: 1542
- Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
- Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Debuccalization, s > h, isn't the same as dropping the historical /s/ altogether. Debuccalization is very widespread in both Latin America and Spain, but dropping is specific to that area I mentioned.Jetboy wrote:Huh, I thought it was more widespread than that. I knew an Argentinean who had debuccalization of coda /s/.Serafín wrote:The colloquial Spanish of Caribbeans and some southern Spaniards, please don't generalize this to the rest of us.Jetboy wrote:Also, if anyone feels like cutting out steps, Latin -> colloquial Spanish has /s/ -> /e/ #_C.
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
you get words in english which have gained or lost initial n because, for instance, an orange and a norange sound the same. I'm sure you will have known that, though. (Incidentally, Japanese people don't tend to "get" the concept of liaison, and it can be a chore to get them to pronounce words like this as [ənɒrəndʒ] instead of [əɴʔɒrəndʒ] (that's leaving aside the fact that they usually pronounce this word [ɔɾɛndʒi]). But i've heard at least one speaker who'd internalised "hours" as "nours" because he always hears phrases like "an hour" or "half an hour" and reasoned that it must be "a nour", and later ended up pronouncing "2 hours" as "2 nours"...)AnTeallach wrote:Scottish Gaelic has a habit of putting /f/ on the beginning of words which start with a vowel, because initial zero can be interpreted as grammatical lenition of /f/. You also get things like /h/ becoming /t/ for similar reasons.
-
- Avisaru
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
- Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
יתר. The qal pf. form itself is not used, perhaps, though the participle is. (yother I suppose).Mr. Z wrote:sirdanilot: I don't think I've heard the word /ja:Tar/... Care for Hebrew transcription? I think I know the root (because your other word of the same root is familiar), but that particular form must have disappeared from the modern language...
In my very own dialect of Dutch (Zeelandic): *vi:f -> /vy:f/, *bli:f -> /bly:f/, *bəˈxriːp -> /bəˈhryːp/. This occurs only before /p/ and /f/, and the change is no longer productive, for example never in names (except if they have been living in the same village since forever, for example someone named *ˈ piːpəlɪŋk could become ˈ pyːpəlɪŋk though it would be idiolectal at best).Does anyone know if front rounded vowels have ever arisen from front unrounded vowels?
Interestingly, some variants of my dialect have the opposite change at the same time. *dy:r -> /di:rə/. I wouldn't say /di:rə/ myself, though.
In Standard Dutch, this foneme changed to something like /ɛɪ/ unconditionally. *vi:f -> /vɛɪf/.
-
- Avisaru
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
- Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Please don't be ridiculous. I posted 'american IPA notation' to denote that /y/ would obviously be /j/ (everyone knows americanist IPA does that). As you may notice, I did not do so in my post above, meaning I do mean /y/ there. If I diverge from standard IPA at any time, I will note it, and so should everyone else for themselves.Skomakar'n wrote:It wasn't entirely obvious. It's still stupid not to use IPA like everyone else in a forum like this. At least other messages in this thread related to y > u or u > y started becoming confusing after that message, because I wasn't sure whether anyone actually meant y anymore.Whimemsz wrote:Jesus, guys, it's obvious he meant "Americanist Phonetic Notation," in which <y> is /j/, why is this such a big deal?
- Drydic
- Smeric
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
- Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
- Contact:
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
You fucking brits and your ɒfinlay wrote:you get words in english which have gained or lost initial n because, for instance, an orange and a norange sound the same. I'm sure you will have known that, though. (Incidentally, Japanese people don't tend to "get" the concept of liaison, and it can be a chore to get them to pronounce words like this as [ənɒrəndʒ] instead of [əɴʔɒrəndʒ] (that's leaving aside the fact that they usually pronounce this word [ɔɾɛndʒi]). But i've heard at least one speaker who'd internalised "hours" as "nours" because he always hears phrases like "an hour" or "half an hour" and reasoned that it must be "a nour", and later ended up pronouncing "2 hours" as "2 nours"...)AnTeallach wrote:Scottish Gaelic has a habit of putting /f/ on the beginning of words which start with a vowel, because initial zero can be interpreted as grammatical lenition of /f/. You also get things like /h/ becoming /t/ for similar reasons.
- Miekko
- Avisaru
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:43 am
- Location: the turing machine doesn't stop here any more
- Contact:
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
americanist PA is the preferred term.sirdanilot wrote:Please don't be ridiculous. I posted 'american IPA notation' to denote that /y/ would obviously be /j/ (everyone knows americanist IPA does that). As you may notice, I did not do so in my post above, meaning I do mean /y/ there. If I diverge from standard IPA at any time, I will note it, and so should everyone else for themselves.Skomakar'n wrote:It wasn't entirely obvious. It's still stupid not to use IPA like everyone else in a forum like this. At least other messages in this thread related to y > u or u > y started becoming confusing after that message, because I wasn't sure whether anyone actually meant y anymore.Whimemsz wrote:Jesus, guys, it's obvious he meant "Americanist Phonetic Notation," in which <y> is /j/, why is this such a big deal?
< Cev> My people we use cars. I come from a very proud car culture-- every part of the car is used, nothing goes to waste. When my people first saw the car, generations ago, we called it šuŋka wakaŋ-- meaning "automated mobile".
-
- Avisaru
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
- Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
lo and behold I dropped the 'ist' off of Americanist, making my speech utterly incomprehensible
- Miekko
- Avisaru
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:43 am
- Location: the turing machine doesn't stop here any more
- Contact:
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
lo and behold you also appended I before PA, making it confusing and wrong! (Think about it - American International ... should give you a clue there's something wrong!)sirdanilot wrote:lo and behold I dropped the 'ist' off of Americanist, making my speech utterly incomprehensible
< Cev> My people we use cars. I come from a very proud car culture-- every part of the car is used, nothing goes to waste. When my people first saw the car, generations ago, we called it šuŋka wakaŋ-- meaning "automated mobile".
- installer_swan
- Sanci
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Hic
- Contact:
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
In his defence a lot of Americans probably think of international as a synonym for national (cf. "World Series" etc)Miekko wrote:lo and behold you also appended I before PA, making it confusing and wrong! (Think about it - American International ... should give you a clue there's something wrong!)sirdanilot wrote:lo and behold I dropped the 'ist' off of Americanist, making my speech utterly incomprehensible
..- ... ..- --.- .. .-. --- -..-
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
What?? That's insane!Tropylium wrote:Moreover, the merger of lengthened *t and non-lengthened *tt was not entirely complete; a few dialects of Ume Sami have a four-way length distinction:
*tttt < *tt / _V.
*ttt < *tt / _VC.
*tt < *t / _V.
*t < *t / _VC.
- Aurora Rossa
- Smeric
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:46 am
- Location: The vendée of America
- Contact:
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Yeah, I am almost not sure I believe it.Qwynegold wrote:What?? That's insane!
"There was a particular car I soon came to think of as distinctly St. Louis-ish: a gigantic white S.U.V. with a W. bumper sticker on it for George W. Bush."
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
okay time out-- what is the source and where can I learn more about this?
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
NYC English bird > boid!Travis B. wrote:Then there's English dialects which made the change of Middle English [iː] > present-day [aː] - skipping a couple steps there, of course.linguoboy wrote:Mandarin Chinese has [ai] > [iə], which is kind of wack.
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
I'm not sure if this applies for any other words, but for my grandmother and a few other older speakers around here, the word <borrow> has a pretty drastic vowel shift at the end of the word, that is, /ou/ > /i/, so the word is pronounced approximately [bɑɹi].
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
IIRC I sighted the 4-grade claim from Pekka Sammallahti's 1998 monograph The Saami languages: An Introduction.
Phonetically it should help a little that the realizations are probably along the lines [ʰtː] : [ʰtˑ] : [ʰt] : [d̥] (the book only mentions Ume Sami in passing, but a lack of preaspiration in the length-1 series there too seems to be implied). Or perhaps not, because then we also have consider the long lenis series, [d̥ː] : [d̥ˑ] and the like (a Western Samic innovation from nasal+stop; it's possible however that Ume does not have gradation for those and thus has only five series of stops).
The fortis/lenis opposition also applies to clusters, FWIW. *pt [pt], but *mt [b̥d̥].
Also IIRC — my notes are less clear here — in Northern Sami nasals also have (phonetically) a four-way grade distinction, but it's resolved into 2×2 phonetics via preglottalization, ie. [ʔmː] : [ʔm] : [mː] : [m]
(Note to self: the Wikipedia entry for Northern Sami really needs a phonology section.)
Phonetically it should help a little that the realizations are probably along the lines [ʰtː] : [ʰtˑ] : [ʰt] : [d̥] (the book only mentions Ume Sami in passing, but a lack of preaspiration in the length-1 series there too seems to be implied). Or perhaps not, because then we also have consider the long lenis series, [d̥ː] : [d̥ˑ] and the like (a Western Samic innovation from nasal+stop; it's possible however that Ume does not have gradation for those and thus has only five series of stops).
The fortis/lenis opposition also applies to clusters, FWIW. *pt [pt], but *mt [b̥d̥].
Also IIRC — my notes are less clear here — in Northern Sami nasals also have (phonetically) a four-way grade distinction, but it's resolved into 2×2 phonetics via preglottalization, ie. [ʔmː] : [ʔm] : [mː] : [m]
(Note to self: the Wikipedia entry for Northern Sami really needs a phonology section.)
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]
- Skomakar'n
- Smeric
- Posts: 1273
- Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:05 pm
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
I didn't see that, unless you mean after the message. If not, sorry.sirdanilot wrote:Please don't be ridiculous. I posted 'american IPA notation' to denote that /y/ would obviously be /j/ (everyone knows americanist IPA does that). As you may notice, I did not do so in my post above, meaning I do mean /y/ there. If I diverge from standard IPA at any time, I will note it, and so should everyone else for themselves.Skomakar'n wrote:It wasn't entirely obvious. It's still stupid not to use IPA like everyone else in a forum like this. At least other messages in this thread related to y > u or u > y started becoming confusing after that message, because I wasn't sure whether anyone actually meant y anymore.Whimemsz wrote:Jesus, guys, it's obvious he meant "Americanist Phonetic Notation," in which <y> is /j/, why is this such a big deal?
I still don't see the point of not just using IPA, though.
Online dictionary for my conlang Vanga: http://royalrailway.com/tungumaalMiin/Vanga/
#undef FEMALE
I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688
Of an Ernst'ian one.
#undef FEMALE
I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688
Of an Ernst'ian one.
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
That's probably just loss of secondary stress; only /@ @` i/ are allowed in unstressed word-final position. (see also: 'tater', my grandfather's pronunciation of 'ohio' as ending in [@])Theta wrote:I'm not sure if this applies for any other words, but for my grandmother and a few other older speakers around here, the word <borrow> has a pretty drastic vowel shift at the end of the word, that is, /ou/ > /i/, so the word is pronounced approximately [bɑɹi].
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Too bad it's practically extinct these days. Also a historical feature of Yat dialect in New Orleans, where it is similarly in retreat.TaylorS wrote:NYC English bird > boid!Travis B. wrote:Then there's English dialects which made the change of Middle English [iː] > present-day [aː] - skipping a couple steps there, of course.linguoboy wrote:Mandarin Chinese has [ai] > [iə], which is kind of wack.
There's also the reverse shift of, e.g. toilet > terlet (i.e. ['tʰɝlɨt̚]).
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Not to mention the fact that "borrow" is followed by "your" most of the time. In a phrase like "Can I borrow your spade?" It would be hard to say what that vowel was, or if it had any phonemically salient quality of its own.Nortaneous wrote:That's probably just loss of secondary stress; only /@ @` i/ are allowed in unstressed word-final position. (see also: 'tater', my grandfather's pronunciation of 'ohio' as ending in [@])Theta wrote:I'm not sure if this applies for any other words, but for my grandmother and a few other older speakers around here, the word <borrow> has a pretty drastic vowel shift at the end of the word, that is, /ou/ > /i/, so the word is pronounced approximately [bɑɹi].
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Do some people really have secondary stress in words like "borrow", "arrow", "window", etc? I cant help but see that as a claim people made so that they could stick to the ideal of saying that the only unstressed vowels in English are /ə ɚ ɪ i/ (or some similar system). If I heard someone saying "borrow" is if it were a compound of "bor" and "row" I'd assume they didnt know English very well.
That, or the definition of secondary stress that youre using doesnt mean the kind of secondary stress which is generally exemplified by compounds.
That, or the definition of secondary stress that youre using doesnt mean the kind of secondary stress which is generally exemplified by compounds.
Isnt it really just /ɜɪ/, though? Ive only heard the full-blown /ɔɪ/ in cartoons and other mock accents.NYC English bird > boid!
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
- AnTeallach
- Lebom
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:51 pm
- Location: Yorkshire
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
... and isn't/wasn't it a merger of NURSE and CHOICE as [ɜɪ] rather than the reversal it's sometimes portrayed as? I think the alleged Utah NORTH/START reversal ("barn in a born") is also actually a merger.Soap wrote:Isnt it really just /ɜɪ/, though? Ive only heard the full-blown /ɔɪ/ in cartoons and other mock accents.NYC English bird > boid!
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
By some guidelines this would be an example of tertiary stress, with it corresponding to "unstressed" "full" vowels, and contrasting with when these vowels are reduced all the way, e.g. with /oʊ̯/ being reduced to /ə/ or, before a vowel, to /əw/ (or, in some dialects, /ɵ/ instead of /ə/, from what I have read).Soap wrote:Do some people really have secondary stress in words like "borrow", "arrow", "window", etc? I cant help but see that as a claim people made so that they could stick to the ideal of saying that the only unstressed vowels in English are /ə ɚ ɪ i/ (or some similar system). If I heard someone saying "borrow" is if it were a compound of "bor" and "row" I'd assume they didnt know English very well.
That, or the definition of secondary stress that youre using doesnt mean the kind of secondary stress which is generally exemplified by compounds.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
- Drydic
- Smeric
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
- Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
- Contact:
Re: Bizarre Sound Changes
Eh? Haven't heard that one, and I'm in the next state north...AnTeallach wrote:I think the alleged Utah NORTH/START reversal ("barn in a born") is also actually a merger.