zompist bboard

WE ARE MOVING - see Ephemera
It is currently Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:54 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Vowelless words
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:47 am 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:51 pm
Posts: 66
Is it possible to have a word with no vowels? I''m not talking about syllabic consonants like nasals functioning as the nucleus - the example I was thinking of was more like using /p'/ as a one syllable preposition. Would this be more likely to be analyzed as a prefix, which would attach to the following word; or perhaps as having a voiceless vowel afterward? Or is it possible to have a vowelless (maybe I mean nucleus-less) syllable.

_________________
TomHChappell wrote:
I don't know if that answers your question; is English a natlang?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:51 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Berlin, Germany
Aren't there prepositions like z or v in some slavic languages? I think I've seen some there.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:51 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:02 pm
Posts: 779
Location: Brussels
Russian has some vowelless function words. So do some other Slavic languages (Polish?)

I speak neither Russian nor Polish, though. I just remember seeing them in texts.

(edit) well, there you go ^

_________________
— o noth sidiritt Tormiott


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:57 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:09 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Merseyside, England, UK
Russian has /v/ for 'in', and probably more like that. And French has /l/ as an definite article before words beginning in a vowel. Many Northern English dialects have /ʔ/ for 'the'. So it's certainly possible, but I don't know any examples with non-function words.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:32 am 
Sanci
Sanci
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:01 pm
Posts: 51
Location: /ai/ < [a:]
Quote:
xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓

Case closed.

_________________
Pthug wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:
I grew up my entire life surrounded by a Special Ed educator.

i can imagine

Catch me on YouTube.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:48 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Posts: 2635
Location: Memphis, Tennessee
Fanu wrote:
Aren't there prepositions like z or v in some slavic languages? I think I've seen some there.


But they are prefixed to the following word in speach or have a quick vowel following them.

French also has l' before consonants such as l'bazaar, but it is not a pure consonant.

_________________
Falgwian and Falgwia!!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:56 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:50 pm
Posts: 169
MrKrov wrote:
Quote:
xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓

Case closed.


Ayeah. Along with plenty others.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:49 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 76
Location: Marburg, Germany
Sonorants can be syllable nuclei easily.

German reduces final /əl(n)/ and final stop + /əm ən əŋ/ to syllabic consonants: <Deckel> [dɛ.kl̩], <wechseln> [vɛk.sl̩n], <bleiben> [blae.bm̩], <sagen> [zaː.gŋ̩], <können> [kʰœn.n̩] ...

_________________
giˈtaɹ.plɛɪ̯ɚ‿n dɪs.ˈgaɪz • Der Sprachbaukasten
And! Ayeri Reference Grammar (upd. 28 Sep 2010)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vowelless words
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:06 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:50 pm
Posts: 169
That's not what he's talking about, though.
Kai_DaiGoji wrote:
I''m not talking about syllabic consonants like nasals functioning as the nucleus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:38 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:05 pm
Posts: 274
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Viktor77 wrote:
Fanu wrote:
Aren't there prepositions like z or v in some slavic languages? I think I've seen some there.


But they are prefixed to the following word in speach or have a quick vowel following them.

French also has l' before consonants such as l'bazaar, but it is not a pure consonant.


You're talking about written colloquial French, right? Le is never condensed before a consonant (h muet doesn't count).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vowelless words
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:43 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:44 pm
Posts: 76
Location: Marburg, Germany
Trailsend wrote:
That's not what he's talking about, though.
Kai_DaiGoji wrote:
I''m not talking about syllabic consonants like nasals functioning as the nucleus

Shame on me for not properly reading the OP.

_________________
giˈtaɹ.plɛɪ̯ɚ‿n dɪs.ˈgaɪz • Der Sprachbaukasten
And! Ayeri Reference Grammar (upd. 28 Sep 2010)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:09 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Posts: 2635
Location: Memphis, Tennessee
Snaka wrote:
You're talking about written colloquial French, right? Le is never condensed before a consonant (h muet doesn't count).


Yes, colloquial French.

_________________
Falgwian and Falgwia!!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:14 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:51 pm
Posts: 66
MrKrov wrote:
Quote:
xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓

Case closed.

You know, I even remember reading that one on Wikipedia, now that I think about it. I'd still want to hear someone pronounce it - I would definitely stick a few vowels in if I tried.

_________________
TomHChappell wrote:
I don't know if that answers your question; is English a natlang?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:47 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:51 pm
Posts: 125
Location: Yorkshire
Kai_DaiGoji wrote:
MrKrov wrote:
Quote:
xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓

Case closed.

You know, I even remember reading that one on Wikipedia, now that I think about it. I'd still want to hear someone pronounce it - I would definitely stick a few vowels in if I tried.


The UCLA phonetics archive does have a recording of some of the vowelless words from Nuxálk/Bella Coola, but I didn't find the sound quality very good:
http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/BLC/blc.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:54 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:05 pm
Posts: 274
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
[deleted]


Last edited by Ziz on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:17 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:23 pm
Posts: 188
Kai_DaiGoji wrote:
You know, I even remember reading that one on Wikipedia, now that I think about it. I'd still want to hear someone pronounce it - I would definitely stick a few vowels in if I tried.


I can just barely wrap my tongue around that the bunchberry one—I get about 4 syllables with nucleuses pretty much falling on sibilants and laterals. It helps a lot that it's all voiceless; I find it more difficult to weed out vowels of long clusters containing voiced consonants. I can't find a recording of the bunchberry or the animal fat word specifically, but this is very cool.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:59 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 125
Strč prst skrz krk, meaning "stick a finger through your neck" in Czech.
Smrž pln skvrn zvlhl z mlh "A morel full of spots wetted from fogs". (Here zvlhl has two syllables based on L; note that the preposition z consists of a single consonant. Only prepositions do this in Czech, and they normally link phonetically to the following noun, so do not really behave as vowelless words.) In Russian, there are also prepositions that consist of a single consonant letter, like k "to", v "in", and s "with". However, these forms are actually contractions of ko, vo, and so respectively, and these forms are still used in modern Russian before words with certain consonant clusters for ease of pronunciation.
Berber examples include /tkkststt/ "you took it off" and /tfktstt/ "you gave it". Some words may contain one or two consonants only: /ɡ/ "be", /ks/ "feed on".

Source: Wikipedia.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vowelless words
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:06 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Berlin, Germany
Once again.
Kai_DaiGoji wrote:
I''m not talking about syllabic consonants (...) functioning as the nucleus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:33 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
I'd analyze it as a prefix unless there's a good reason not to, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Jacqui wrote:
Berber examples include /tkkststt/ "you took it off" and /tfktstt/ "you gave it". Some words may contain one or two consonants only: /ɡ/ "be", /ks/ "feed on".

I think Berber has an epenthetic vowel.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:20 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 491
Location: Maryland
Russian has a total of six vowelless, one-consonant words:

/s/ = "with, off of"
/k/ = "to, towards"
/v/ = "in, into"
/b/ = subjunctive/conditional mood particle (~"would")
/Z/ = emphatic particle
/l_j/ = interrogative particle

They're usually just pronounced slurred into the neighboring words, though.

The last three of these are contracted forms of /b1/, /Ze/, and /l_ji/ respectively that occur as stylistic/positional variants. The first three, however, really are vowelless prepositional clitics.

Jacqui wrote:
In Russian, there are also prepositions that consist of a single consonant letter, like k "to", v "in", and s "with". However, these forms are actually contractions of ko, vo, and so respectively, and these forms are still used in modern Russian before words with certain consonant clusters for ease of pronunciation.


No, they aren't. At least not strictly speaking. Ko, vo, and so are variants of k, v, and s with a filler vowel, not the other way around, even though the ancestral form did have a vowel. The regular development of the Common Slavic prepositions *kъ, *vъ, and *sъ in Russian yields simply /k/, /v/, and /s/, while /ko vo so/ are positional variants caused by things such as stress shifting or the general pattern of reduced vowel loss in Old East Slavic.

Even easier way to demonstrate it: As a Russian to say the word "in" or "with". They'll just say the consonant.

Nortaneous wrote:
I'd analyze it as a prefix unless there's a good reason not to, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.


In Russian, for instance, they're best analyzed as clitics, since you can freely stick other words or phrases in between.

_________________
http://www.veche.net/
http://www.veche.net/novegradian - Grammar of Novegradian
http://www.veche.net/alashian - Grammar of Alashian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:47 pm 
Sanci
Sanci
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:17 pm
Posts: 61
Mecislau covered everything I would have to say about Russian, but here's a Ukrainian example.
The word for "and" is usually і /i/, but if it comes after vowels it is й /j/.
Ukrainian has в /v/ (like in Russian), plus з /z/ which is a cognate of Russian с.
Polish has w /v/and z /z/ but I don't know about others.

I'm not an expert on Ukrainian or Polish so correct me if I'm wrong about these.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:21 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:22 pm
Posts: 158
Location: Somewhere north of Dixieland
na'oolkili wrote:
Kai_DaiGoji wrote:
You know, I even remember reading that one on Wikipedia, now that I think about it. I'd still want to hear someone pronounce it - I would definitely stick a few vowels in if I tried.


I can just barely wrap my tongue around that the bunchberry one—I get about 4 syllables with nucleuses pretty much falling on sibilants and laterals. It helps a lot that it's all voiceless; I find it more difficult to weed out vowels of long clusters containing voiced consonants. I can't find a recording of the bunchberry or the animal fat word specifically, but this is very cool.

I'd like to hear a recording of the "bunchberry" word too. But, it's definitely possible; a while ago someone here was trying to make a language without vowels, and wanted a recording to make sure it was pronounceable or something. So I made one of a word from that language (the name of it, I think): [Cqstxnh]

_________________
Radius Solis wrote:
The scientific method! It works, bitches.

Είναι όλα Ελληνικά για μένα.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:03 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:17 pm
Posts: 183
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
AnTeallach wrote:
The UCLA phonetics archive does have a recording of some of the vowelless words from Nuxálk/Bella Coola, but I didn't find the sound quality very good:
http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/BLC/blc.html

That guy should work in sound effects for TV and radio. Unless, as I can't help suspecting, he was actually just spinning a rusty bicycle wheel instead of speaking...

_________________
Linguistics will become a science when linguists begin standing on one another's shoulders instead of on one another's toes.
—Stephen R. Anderson

Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:22 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:31 pm
Posts: 244
Location: Kliwia Czarna
@Silk: in pl there's also k "towards", archaic or dialectal (the standard form of this preposition is now ku, not that it is used very often anyway).

_________________
uciekajcie od światów konających


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:38 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Posts: 2373
Location: Santiago de Chile
isn't church pretty much wholly consonantal ? [tʃɹtʃ]


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group