The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

[Zaarin]

CAUGHT in -olic sounds super Canucky to me.

Really? COT in -olic sounds very Boston/New England to me. :p

[Imralu]

Do you pronounce asphalt with an ass or ash at the beginning?

[ˈbɪt͡ʃʰəmən]

But yeah, if I do say that word, it's with /s/ ... so, beginning ass as in the obsolete word meaning donkey ... but not the American loanword ass meaning arse, because that is with phonemically long /æː/ ... so it wouldn't have occurred to me that it could sound funny.

Do you pronounce asphalt with an ass or ash at the beginning?

It's not a word I use often, since IMD this is largely covered by "pavement". But when I do say it, it's with [s].

And that means the driving surface, not the walking surface?

Does frog have a CAUGHT vowel or COT vowel for you? I and most people I know have a CAUGHT vowel here, but I'm increasingly hearing the COT vowel, including from my mom. Thus I have [fɹ̱ˁɒg] and my mom has [fɻɑg].

The COT vowel. AusE is pretty predictable from spelling. The CAUGHT vowel is almost always indicated by <or> <au> or <aw>. Just an <o> in a word like this will be COT. There are exceptions but I can't think of any right now. For example, all of these are with the COT vowel ...

• doll, moll, loll, Sol (the Roman god), pol (clipping of "politician")
• alcohol, ethanol, methanol, parasol, aerosol
• golf, dolphin, solv- (in solve, absolve, resolve, solvent, solvency) -volv- (in evolve, revolve, involve, devolve), olfaction, olfactory
• melancholic, metabolic, alcoholic (also workaholic, chocoholic etc.)

... except for maybe the word "golf" because of the GULF-GOLF merger, which I had fully as a child but don't seem very consistent about these days. And maybe I pronounce "alcohol" with "whole" at the end ... I can't really work out what I do naturally.

Similarly to what linguoboy said, COT before an L is pretty hard to distinguish from GOAT because L turns our GOAT into something far less obscene than its usual [ɐʉ̯] pronunciation that foreigners all find weird. Like "doll" is something like [dɔɫ] and "dole" is maybe [dɔʊ̯ɫ] ... and with L vocalisation it's even closer. In fact, I don't think it's possible for me to work out which one I say in the words with "olv" ... there might be no difference at all. In any case, definitely none of them has the CAUGHT vowel.

And there are some Australians who have the funny thing that the Queen has with "off" and "cloth" (pronouncing them with the CAUGHT vowel) but I've only met one or two people who I've noticed with that. And my mum says "fault" and "faulty" with CAUGHT whereas most other people I know say it with COT, so there's an exception to the spelling rule.

I remember hearing it with COT on Sesame Street growing up and finding that very odd. I also remember being baffled by the eye-dialect spelling "dawg" because how else would you say that?

I remember being really baffled by it to, but only because I generally can't tell the difference between the American CAUGHT and COT vowels. Like, people write "dawg" but no matter which way you say it, it all kind of just sounds like "darg" to me.

Also, I never realised until I came to the ZBB that the "mom" is actually a different word and not just an American spelling of "mum". I figured, for you guys, it was one of those words like "mother" and "love" where the "o" is pronounced like a short "u" ..., and we just write it with a "u". To me, hearing Americans say "mom", it always just kind of sounded like you pronounce it really long, like you're always whining "mooooooooooom" and I assumed that you'd pronounce it like "mum" normally ... lol. I was wrong.

Pol isn't really a word I'd use. Politician is COT, so...

Never talked about Pol Pot?

CAUGHT in -olic sounds super Canucky to me.

Really? COT in -olic sounds very Boston/New England to me. :p

Pretty sure that's how most of Old England and a good part of the Commonwealth pronounce it too.

[Zaarin]

Pol isn't really a word I'd use. Politician is COT, so...

Never talked about Pol Pot?

Sure, but that has the GOAT vowel, homophonic with pole.

[finlay]

There are three sets, not two: LOT, CLOTH and THOUGHT. (cot and caught weren't used because they need to be distinct for everyone)

CLOTH is the one that varies depending on the dialect whether it's a COT or CAUGHT vowel (generally merged with COT in UK dialects except conservative RP and often merged with THOUGHT in american dialects that distinguish the two, but not always??). But I get the impression it's relatively ill-defined.

Anyway I kind of vary between whether I distinguish them or not based on how recently I talked to a scottish person, so i'm not necessarily the best person to ask.

[linguoboy]

Do you pronounce asphalt with an ass or ash at the beginning?

It's not a word I use often, since IMD this is largely covered by "pavement". But when I do say it, it's with [s].

And that means the driving surface, not the walking surface?

"Pavement" covers all manner of paved surfaces--asphalt, concrete, pavers, cobblestones, etc. If you say "I tripped on the curb and hit my head on the pavement", I won't immediately know if you were stepping into the street or onto the sidewalk.

And there are some Australians who have the funny thing that the Queen has with "off" and "cloth" (pronouncing them with the CAUGHT vowel)

Ah, thanks for explaining the eye-dialect spelling "orf" to me at long last!

[alynnidalar]

Another question for the non-merged American speakers here: what vowels do you have before "l" in the following words?

• doll, moll, loll, Sol (the Roman god), pol (clipping of "politician")
• alcohol, ethanol, methanol, parasol, aerosol
• golf, dolphin, solv- (in solve, absolve, resolve, solvent, solvency) -volv- (in evolve, revolve, involve, devolve), olfaction, olfactory
• melancholic, metabolic, alcoholic (also workaholic, chocoholic etc.)

I don't use all of these words, but I'll do my best.

PALM/LOT (my COT): doll, loll?, politician, Molly (I don't use "pol" or "moll" and I've never said "Pol Pot" aloud, so take what you can get), melancholic, metabolic
GOAT: Sol (I don't know if that's the pronunciation for the Roman god, but it's how the Spanish word is said)
THOUGHT (my CAUGHT): alcohol (and alcoholic), ethanol, methanol, aerosol, golf, dolphin, solv-, -volv-, olfactory, probably olfaction and parasol (although I would rarely use either word)

[StrangerCoug]

Are there any other American English speakers here that don't Anglicize <niche>? I hear /nɪtʃ/ a lot, but my familiarity with French and the fact that <-iche> doesn't usually get pronounced /-ɪtʃ/ as far as I know lead me to pronouce it /niːʃ/, which I've read is the usual Canadian pronunciation.

[KathTheDragon]

FWIW, /ni:ʃ/ is the usual British English pronunciation, as far as I'm aware.

[Zaarin]

Are there any other American English speakers here that don't Anglicize <niche>? I hear /nɪtʃ/ a lot, but my familiarity with French and the fact that <-iche> doesn't usually get pronounced /-ɪtʃ/ as far as I know lead me to pronouce it /niːʃ/, which I've read is the usual Canadian pronunciation.

I also pronounce it /niːʃ/, but /nɪtʃ/ seems to be more common (to my irritation).

[linguoboy]

Are there any other American English speakers here that don't Anglicize <niche>? I hear /nɪtʃ/ a lot, but my familiarity with French and the fact that <-iche> doesn't usually get pronounced /-ɪtʃ/ as far as I know lead me to pronouce it /niːʃ/, which I've read is the usual Canadian pronunciation.

I switched from [ˈnɪtʃ] to [ˈniːʃ] at some point in my teens. I'm not sure what my family does.

[Sol717]

Does anyone else have L-vocalisation

[Travis B.]

Does anyone else have L-vocalisation

I do, very strongly.

[Sol717]

Some more details about vowel mergers, etc. would be appreciated.

It doesn't have to be as complicated as this:

/æl/ no words end with this or have this before a consonant.
/el/ -> /al/ -> /aw/ belt: [bɐwt] (rhymes with bout)
/il/ -> /eɘw/ feel: [fe.ɘw] (see corresponding words with historic r)
/øl/ -> /øw/ earl: [øw]
/ɘl/ -> /ɘw/, but coda l is not usually vocalised: spill: [spɘl] spilt: [spɘwt]. Can alternate with [ɤw]
/ɐl~al/ merger with /ɐw/ but sometimes l is retained: fell: [fɐl]
/ɐwl/: l is usually not vocalised due to /ɐl/ -> /ɐw/ foul: [fɐwl]
/ɞwl/: shortened to /ɔ/~/ɔw/, but l is retained: poll [pɔl], pole [pɔwl]
/ɔl/: raised to new phoneme /ɵ(w)/ (this is seperate due to /ɞw/ shortening) bald [bɵwd]
/ɤl/ simply /ɤw/ built: [bɤwt], [bɘwt] Can alternate with /ɘw/
/ul/ merges with /ɔl/ to become /ɵw/: pooled [pɵwd]
/ajl/ undergoes syllabic breaking file: [faj.ɘl], [faj.ɤw]
/æjl/ undergoes syllabic breaking fail: [fæj.ɘl], [fæj.ɤw]
/ɤjl/ undergoes syllabic breaking foil: [fɤj.ɘl], [fɤj.ɘw]
/jul/ mostly retains l: fuel: [fjɤl], [fjɤw]

[Travis B.]

What kind of English do you speak?

[Sumelic]

/æl/ no words end with this or have this before a consonant.

What vowel do pal, Sal, algebra have?

[Sol717]

What kind of English do you speak?

New Zealand English

/æl/ no words end with this or have this before a consonant.

What vowel do pal, Sal, algebra have?

[pɐl sɐl ɐldʑɘbɹɐ]: though words with original [æ] seem to not vocalise l. The merger of [e] (GAE/RP /ɛ/) with [ɐ] before historic /l/ must have been only allowed by the similar merger of [æ] after l.

[Travis B.]

I speak an Inland North dialect from the Milwaukee area in southeastern Wisconsin.

My careful stressed or initial or otherwise geminate pronunciation of /l/ is [ʟ̞].

My unstressed, uncareful, or as a second member of a cluster prevocalic pronunciation of /l/ is [ɰ] or [w] (this appears to undergo some degree of free variation).

My intervocalic or postvocalic pronunciation of /l/ is any one of [ɯ̞ ʊ ɤ o] (if adjacent to open to open-mid vowels, close-mid realizations are used, otherwise near-close realizations are used, and when adjacent to one or more rounded vowels, rounded realizations are used).

My syllabic realization of /l/ is [ɯ̞ ʊ] (when adjacent to one or more rounded vowels or labialized consonants, rounded realizations are used).

[Zaarin]

[pɐl sɐl ɐldʑɘbɹɐ]: though words with original [æ] seem to not vocalise l. The merger of [e] (GAE/RP /ɛ/) with [ɐ] before historic /l/ must have been only allowed by the similar merger of [æ] after l.

I didn't realize there were varieties of English with alveolo-palatals. I can't find a reference to that on the page for New Zealand English; is your usage idiosyncratic?

[Pole, the]

[pɐl sɐl ɐldʑɘbɹɐ]: though words with original [æ] seem to not vocalise l. The merger of [e] (GAE/RP /ɛ/) with [ɐ] before historic /l/ must have been only allowed by the similar merger of [æ] after l.

I didn't realize there were varieties of English with alveolo-palatals. I can't find a reference to that on the page for New Zealand English; is your usage idiosyncratic?

I think at least some varieties of British English have it.

[Travis B.]

I allophonically have alveolopalatals... but my English is weird.

[Sol717]

[pɐl sɐl ɐldʑɘbɹɐ]: though words with original [æ] seem to not vocalise l. The merger of [e] (GAE/RP /ɛ/) with [ɐ] before historic /l/ must have been only allowed by the similar merger of [æ] after l.

I didn't realize there were varieties of English with alveolo-palatals. I can't find a reference to that on the page for New Zealand English; is your usage idiosyncratic?

Yes, it is idiolectal. Non-palatalised [ʂ] [ʐ] contrast with palatalised [tɕ] [dʑ]

[Travis B.]

Why is it that NZ English seems very, very weird from this, but when I actually have heard NZ English it does not sound too much different from most other English varieties descended from southeastern English English post split of NAE from the rest of English except for that /ɛ ɪ/ sound to my ears like they have merged?

[Sol717]

Why is it that NZ English seems very, very weird from this, but when I actually have heard NZ English it does not sound too much different from most other English varieties descended from southeastern English English post split of NAE from the rest of English except for that /ɛ ɪ/ sound to my ears like they have merged?

NZ English is quite weird, but a lot of the features I have mentioned are exclusive to my idiolect.

[Travis B.]

Does anyone else consistently drop the /t/ in that'd, that'll, it'd, and it'll? I have [tɛːt tɛːɤ̯ ɘːt ɘːɯ̯] respectively, and should note that that and it are, in contrast, [tɛʔ ɘʔ].

[Sumelic]

I don't know how consistent it is, but I do think I normally I drop /t/ in that'd > "thad" and it'd > "id".

I certainly don't consistently drop /t/ for that'll and it'll. They more or less rhyme with battle and little, so dropping the /t/ is probably possible and maybe even usual (as in e.g. "li'l") but a) it's not my mental representation of the words and b) I feel like even if the /t/ is dropped, the /l/ tends to remain at least somewhat more syllabic than in a monomorphemic word like "pal" or "pill".