More English vowels

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
Post Reply
User avatar
garysk
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Location: Desert Hot Springs, CA

More English vowels

Post by garysk »

Why is the <a> of most of the *ash words /æ/, but the <a> of wash is /a/?
(Avatar is an electric motor consisting of a bit of wire, a couple of paper clips,
two neodymium magnets, and a pair of AA batteries. A very cute demo of
minimal technology, and likewise completely useless for any practical purpose.)

Vijay
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: More English vowels

Post by Vijay »


User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: More English vowels

Post by linguoboy »

I thought it was because it's followed by /r/.

User avatar
garysk
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Location: Desert Hot Springs, CA

Re: More English vowels

Post by garysk »

While some people have /r/ in *warsh, most (my observation) don't. I think, if <a> is /a/ because of the /w/, then I would guess that the /r/ is because of the /a/. But English dialectologists may have facts better than my impressions.
(Avatar is an electric motor consisting of a bit of wire, a couple of paper clips,
two neodymium magnets, and a pair of AA batteries. A very cute demo of
minimal technology, and likewise completely useless for any practical purpose.)

Vijay
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: More English vowels

Post by Vijay »

I assumed linguoboy was joking. :P

User avatar
garysk
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Location: Desert Hot Springs, CA

Re: More English vowels

Post by garysk »

I wondered if he might have been joking, since his posts generally (or better) show a lot of knowledge. But only he knows, and others might be mislead.
(Avatar is an electric motor consisting of a bit of wire, a couple of paper clips,
two neodymium magnets, and a pair of AA batteries. A very cute demo of
minimal technology, and likewise completely useless for any practical purpose.)

Vijay
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: More English vowels

Post by Vijay »

I doubt that, especially considering that an awful lot of the people on this forum are native speakers of English themselves and even the non-native ones seem to be aware that certain pronunciations are more common in English than certain others.

Axiem
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: More English vowels

Post by Axiem »

I laughed at it, but he and I are both from St. Louis.

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: More English vowels

Post by linguoboy »

Axiem wrote:I laughed at it, but he and I are both from St. Louis.
...and hence easily amused.

Axiem
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: More English vowels

Post by Axiem »

linguoboy wrote:
Axiem wrote:I laughed at it, but he and I are both from St. Louis.
...and hence easily amused.
I'm not sure if I should agree with that or be offended by it...

Fooge
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:29 pm

Re: More English vowels

Post by Fooge »

"wash" historically had the same vowel as in "crash" and "smash". Then vowel rounding occurred causing the TRAP vowel to become rounded after "w" hence the present pronunciations of "wander", "wasp", "wash", "want", "wand", "watch" etc. The rounding didn't occur before velar consonants as in "wagon", "wax" and "whack" and didn't occur in "swam" the irregular past tense of "swim".

Sol717
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: More English vowels

Post by Sol717 »

Fooge wrote:"wash" historically had the same vowel as in "crash" and "smash". Then vowel rounding occurred causing the TRAP vowel to become rounded after "w" hence the present pronunciations of "wander", "wasp", "wash", "want", "wand", "watch" etc. The rounding didn't occur before velar consonants as in "wagon", "wax" and "whack" and didn't occur in "swam" the irregular past tense of "swim".
"swim"'s past tense would make it an regular class 3 strong verb in English. (that was kind of /s-worthy as the strong verb paradigm has lost its cohesion in English)

User avatar
Nortaneous
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 4544
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Location: the Imperial Corridor

Re: More English vowels

Post by Nortaneous »

no it hasn't -- there are strong verb ablaut patterns regular enough to be extended by analogy. there are even patterns that are *entirely* analogical in origin, e.g. 'dive', 'sneak', 'sit'
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

User avatar
Imralu
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1640
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:14 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: More English vowels

Post by Imralu »

Nortaneous wrote:no it hasn't -- there are strong verb ablaut patterns regular enough to be extended by analogy. there are even patterns that are *entirely* analogical in origin, e.g. 'dive', 'sneak', 'sit'
Agree. I have a phonemic distinction between a long TRAP vowel (the BAD vowel) and a short TRAP vowel (the LAD vowel). Past tense forms formed by ablauting to a always have the LAD vowel even if it would never appear there in other words. Occasionally I accidentally irregularise verbs spontaneously in speech. Once I accidentally said dag as the simple past of dig. What was really interesting is that I said it with the LAD vowel, not like the noun dag which has the BAD vowel. In fact, I can't think of any other word with the LAD vowel before a coda /g/. That sequence is apparently reserved only for past ablaut und just happens not to occur in an real verbs I've ever heard anyone say. (Unless there's a common irregular verb with -ag that I'm overlooking.)

Anyway, my point is that spontaneously, unconsciously irregularising verbs (which I think most English speakers do at times) shows that these patterns do exist in a way that can still be productive and take off (like dove and snuck), and my dialect's vowel split shows quite well that it's somehow stored in my head quite specifically as "this vowel can be used to make things past".
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
________
MY MUSIC

Post Reply