Overall and Sobretodo vs. Over all and Sobre todo

[Viktor77]

Overall (or overalls as I'm more used to saying) are a type of clothing, originally a jacket worn to protect from dirt and rain. While Over all means above everything else.

In Spanish, a sobretodo is also a type of clothing, a rain jacket, and likely originally of the same nature as original English overalls. While sobre todo means, of course, above everything else.

I'm curious, as these two words are too close to not be related, which word is a calque of the other? How did these words come to be so similar?

[Ziz]

Neither RAE nor Etymonline.com mention the other language, so... perhaps it's coincidental?

[Viktor77]

Neither RAE nor Etymonline.com mention the other language, so... perhaps it's coincidental?

It could be, but it's just too close. They are not only calques of each as compound words, but as a compound phrases as well.

[xxx]

In french Pardessus et par dessus same way !

Ethymology

1810, November "women's clothing that was worn over other clothing" (Mercure de France, T.45, T.10 Brunot ds p.151, p.897) 2. 1820, Oct. 31 . "menswear that is to keep out the cold `` (Case modes, VI, p.335) 3. 1894 Canadians (Canadian Dict.-fr.). Empl. Empl. subst. subst. de la loc. the loc. adv. par-dessus *. adv. above *.

[Drydic]

Overall (or overalls as I'm more used to saying) are a type of clothing, originally a jacket worn to protect from dirt and rain. While Over all means above everything else.

In Spanish, a sobretodo is also a type of clothing, a rain jacket, and likely originally of the same nature as original English overalls. While sobre todo means, of course, above everything else.

I'm curious, as these two words are too close to not be related, which word is a calque of the other? How did these words come to be so similar?

gee this sure couldn't actually be a common way of deriving the meaning, IT MUST BE A BORROWING

[sirdanilot]

Dutch also has 'overall' (English loan) for a type of coat and 'overal' meaning 'everywhere'.

It's possible the english and spanish versions are calques of french. In fact, how would that be unlikely, considering french influence in clothing all over europe?

[Ser]

In Spanish, a sobretodo is also a type of clothing, a rain jacket, and likely originally of the same nature as original English overalls.

Never heard this before. o_o Might be a Spaniard thing.

(EDIT: Nevermind, I just read the DRAE entry, which lists this usage as an Americanism:

1. m. Prenda de vestir ancha, larga y con mangas, en general más ligera que el gabán, que se lleva sobre el traje ordinario.

2. m. Am. Abrigo o impermeable que se lleva sobre las demás prendas.

© Real Academia Española.)

In El Salvador we do use a borrowing from English for "overall" though: [o.βe.ˈɾol] (masc. gender). Although now that you mention it I've never seen it written. A rain jacket is a "suéter impermeable" or just "jacket" (fem.), I think.

[Whimemsz]

DRAE gives the spelling as overol.

[Ser]

DRAE gives the spelling as overol.

Oh, I didn't expect them to have added it at all!

[Ziz]

In El Salvador we do use a borrowing from English for "overall" though: [o.βe.ˈɾol] (masc. gender). Although now that you mention it I've never seen it written. A rain jacket is a "suéter impermeable" or just "jacket" (fem.), I think.

You guys say "jacket" and not chaqueta?

[Rui]

Dutch also has 'overall' (English loan) for a type of coat and 'overal' meaning 'everywhere'.

German also has '(der) Overall' for 'overalls,' and 'überall' for 'everywhere'. 'Overall' the adjective is 'allgemein,' and 'over all' is 'über alles' like that one song...

[Ser]

In El Salvador we do use a borrowing from English for "overall" though: [o.βe.ˈɾol] (masc. gender). Although now that you mention it I've never seen it written. A rain jacket is a "suéter impermeable" or just "jacket" (fem.), I think.

You guys say "jacket" and not chaqueta?

"Jacket" or "chumpa" actually. Now that I think about it, I think "chumpa" is more common. ("Chaqueta" sounds Mexican or something to me, dunno.)

[Viktor77]

I think these words being calques of French makes the most sense since the French were during the epoch of this word's creation at the height of influence and fashion.

Serafin, how does one pronounce the j in jacket?

[Ser]

Serafin, how does one pronounce the j in jacket?

[dʒ] or [j]. But I think you should rather use "chumpa" for Salvadorans... (The more I think about it, I fear my use of "jacket" may actually be an in-group thing with family/friends of mine rather than a widespread thing in El Salvador.)

[ol bofosh]

Where I am in Spain chaqueta is more usual.

Interesting all the lingual connections with over all and overall. Too many to be a coincidence, surely.

[Torco]

sobretodo isn't an article of clothing in my version of spanish... it is equivalent to above all in english.
me voy a poner un sobretodo...

yeah, sounds like something a very old person would say.

oh, right, above all is sobre todo.

[Chargone]

... because the odds of it being called that in both languages because in both cases you wear it Over Everything Else are so low?

(so far as i'm aware, mind you, here abouts 'overalls' refer primarily to a single item of clothing that covers one from ankles to wrists to neck (though more 'stylish' (and less practical) women's ones often trade sleeves and collars for shoulder straps ) worn over one's other clothing to protect them from oil, paint, sawdust, dirt, or other such crap that one can find oneself in contact with in construction, maintenance, and repair work of various kinds and the like. usually made of very thick, heavy material.)

nested parenthesis*!

*i can never figure out the plural/singular/whatever for this word :S

[Astraios]

Parentheses. If it's Greek and -is, it goes to -es /i:z/.